tanya

I deny that this Psalm, cited by Toto as evidence, addresses a requirement for all Jews to pray to YHWH at sunrise and sunset, as had been enunciated by Apastamba, half a millenium before Philo, instructing all followers of his ancient Indian religion, of an obligation to pray at sunrise and sunset.

Compare, please, the text in Psalm 72, with Shakespeare's famous Sonnet:

Note in particular, that verse 5, cited by Toto, has NOTHING to do with praying, or with YHWH, or with any obligation, of any kind.

etcetera, etcetera.... ad nauseum

Note, please, that verse 5 has NOTHING to do, with an obligation to follow the Zoroastrian practices of praying according to perceived solar movements, explained by Aristarchus ("ancient men") as rotation of the earth on its axis.

This jewish propaganda, cited by Toto, is supposed to represent a divine instruction to all Jews of an obligation to pray to YHWH at sunrise and sunset? Absurd. The psalm does not even concern YHWH, or any other divine power.

This psalm, 72, concerns a very human KING, and his military power, threatening subjugation of all his neighbors, obliging them to pay him, the king, else face certain death. He was a scumbag warlord, how can Toto possibly compare such evidence of traditional jewish selfishness, with the empathetic Therapeutae of Hippocrates, whose behaviour, was exactly the opposite of the mentality expressed in psalm 72--giving to the weak and helpless, rather than taking from one's neighbors, to fill the coffers of "god's chosen people'--> just as articulated by David.

And Toto dares to accuse ME of "quote mining", even as her alter ego, the great scholar, accused me of "tampering with the evidence" in post 531.

I am astonished by the childish incompetence displayed in Toto's reply.

1. Philo identifies, in detail, these folks, Therapeutae, acknowledging BOTH, their superior healing skills, AND their piety, WITHOUT any reference to the Hebrew diety, but WITH several references to PAGAN ideas, especially Zoroastrianism: Ask yourself, as you read this, WHY DOES Philo employ the word "compare"? If they were Jews, why would he ramble on about Zoroastrian practices and beliefs? Philo does so, because the Therapeutae, WERE NOT JEWS, and Philo is attempting to clarify what it is that they DO BELIEVE, in contrast to the Hebrews:

What would be the point of this sentence, were it not relevant to the beliefs and religious practices of the Therapeutae? If they had been Jews, would he have needed to "compare" them to anything?

2. Why does Philo introduce "demi-gods"? Is it not perfectly clear, that Philo is juxtaposing here, those who believe in such nonsensical traditions, ("how can the same man be both mortal and immortal,") and the behaviour of the Therapeutae, who do not follow such absurd positions (i.e. they behave with rationality, because they seek to heal in accord with the instructions of Hippocrates ("ancient men")?

Had Philo sought to juxtapose the belief system of the Therapeutae--AS A BRANCH OR SECT OF JUDAISM--then, why would he bother to mention all of this detail about Greek linguistics--Is it not obvious, that Philo writes these Greek linguistic minutae, BECAUSE THE THERAPUTAE share a common Greek origin/culture/language/affinity, RATHER THAN, a Semitic, Hebrew identity? Would Philo have written all that crap about "exapsis, as if eµphaistos were also derived from aptomai, being akin to apheµ" if the Therapeutae were a Jewish sect, or a component of the Essenes? When Philo describes the Essenes, does he go on and on and on, about Greek this or Greek that? One hopes that members of this forum understand that Philo was absolutely fluent in Hebrew.

3. Is it not crystal clear, to anyone reading this, that Philo is adding HIS OWN opinions, not simply recounting the belief system of the Therapeutae:

"(for that only heals bodies, but the other heals souls which are under the mastery of terrible and almost incurable diseases, which pleasures and appetites, fears and griefs, and covetousness, and follies, and injustice, and all the rest of the innumerable multitude of other passions and vices, have inflicted upon them)," Those represent Philo's own thoughts.

That bit of trivial banality is Philo's own idea, not Hippocrates'. Philo is accustomed to sitting at his desk, surrounded by manuscripts, reading all day. Hippocrates was on the battlefield, practicing trepanation, exposing the brain, cauterizing wounds, "getting his hands dirty", sewing up abdominal muscles, after stuffing the intestines back into the belly of the wounded generals, cutting off gangrenous limbs, and slicing open the pelvis of women after their third day of unsuccessful labor, with imminent foetal demise:
Donald Todman, "A history of Caesarean section: From ancient world to the modern era", Australian and New Zealand Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology (2007) 47:357-361

a. I share your opinion that you think that you are of "above average intelligence".
b. edit;
c. This forum is not about YOU, or Shesh, or me, or anyone else. It is about uncovering the historical antecedents of earliest Christianity. I urge you, to point to a SINGLE line of text, authored by you, great scholar, on this thread, bearing even one iota of relevance to the issue raised by Pete: Who were the Therapeutae? Thank you Pete, great topic.

AMEN.

stephan huller

Yes, that's what it must be. It MUST be that because my mother is Jewish - rather than the fact that I have read Philo inside and out and no one else in this group has. which accounts for my frustration 500 posts later that people keep claiming that the Therapeutae were pagans. On the one side of the ledger are those of us who have actual familiarity with Philo and ancient Judaism. We know that it is utterly impossible for Philo to have written with approval a pagan group of Therapeutae. Philo actually condemns pagan religion. The text of the Contemplative Life makes that absolutely clear. It was noted in Singer's reference to the text (cited by mountainman). The Contemlative Life actually stands out in terms of Philo's hostility to paganism. Nevertheless, there is this incredible desire on the part of participants in this thread to introduce new ideas which are completely incompatible with the text. There is no reference to Buddhism, physical healings or any of the other things which strangely are incompatible with themselves. This thread only testifies to the poor scholarly habits of those who allow desire to overtake reason.

Of course it is possible to reinterpret evidence with creative license. If you want to draw parallels between what we know about the Jewish Therapeutae. But this is not likely to lead to any productive knowledge. The most likely understanding is that they were somehow related to the Essenes. This is what Philo himself says. There is no evidence for the other things being bandied around this forum and if the posters refuse to acknowledge the traditional Jewish resistance to foreign ideas and that this would necessarily have to be true if Philo was to have approved of this sectarian association this doesn't leave us very much wiggle room.

aa5874

Your post is most disturbing because you very well know that you have no way of proving that "I have read Philo inside and out and no one else in this group has".

It is either you have not read 'VC', did not understand 'VC' or cannot remember what you read.

'VC' contradicts you.

Philo's "On the Contemplative Life" ['VC'] It is clear that the Therapeutae philosphy was MODELED after Non-Jewish writings.

Toto

I never claimed that this logically creates an obligation to pray at those times. But at least some Jews do interpret it that way.

Your claim was that the practice of praying at sunrise and subset showed that the Therapeutae were pagan. But there are Jews who pray at those two times, for whatever reasons.

Your anti-Semitism is showing.

The point is not what Psalm 72 says, or its historical context. Philo describes these Therapeutae as giving an allegorical meaning to the texts that they read.

Yes, you are the one who replaced some key words with '...'

Your parsing of this sentence is just bizarre. Philo is comparing the Jewish Therapeutae favorably to some pagans.

Perhaps you should document your theories and get them peer reviewed?

Why do you think that Philo was "absolutely fluent in Hebrew"? The point seems to be one on which scholars do not agree, but most sources say that Philo was not fluent in Hebrew. He used the LXX, and he might have employed Hebrew-fluent assistants. There was a substantial Greek-speaking Jewish colony in Egypt. There was a reason that the Septuagint was translated into Greek.

In any case, Philo was writing in Koine Greek.

How does that help your case? Read the whole sentence in context. Philo says that the soul healing done by the Therapeutae is better than the body healing done by the physicians in the city.

mountainman

The discussion has historical value for a variety of reasons.

You could examine who has posted the most on this thread.

Sooner or later you might like to think about jerking huller's chain.




Yeah I object.

I have been away from my notes for quite a few days.

I would like the opportunity to respond to a number of meaningful responses including your own.

I need to reread the large article by Runia (although I think that you may be correct about what he refers to when he writes there is no consensus).

And I also wish to read the original article by Loeb from the late 19th century in order to determine how he makes his case that the therapeutae are now to be Jewish.

However I will add these two points for the moment:



(1) The History of Belief about Philo and the therapeutae of "VC"

Between the 4th century and the 15th (16th?) Philo was always referred to a "Church Father" and many sources claim him to have been not just a Christian, but lo and behold a Christian Bishop. The age of Enlightenment saw clearly through this FALSE belief which had persisted courtesy of Eusebius and Jerome. A number of people in the 16th -17th centuries presented the thesis that Philo was a Platonist.

The belief that the therapeutae described in "VC" were Christian persisted until Loeb's thesis of the late 18th century, and is still held by many today. (Runia's consensus most likely as you pointed out). The residual belief that the therapeutae described in "VC" were a Jewish sect is here being questioned.


(2) The arguments that "VC" was not authored by Philo

I have listed these arguments and they are substantial. Whoever authored "VC" does not appear to have held the same opinions as the author Philo displays in other works and in fact many are diametrically opposed. I wont list these again. They are above.

No one has responded to this critical issue. I do not accept that Philo's views were diametrically different in all his other works, and that he had a change of heart when writing "VC".

As far as I am concerned there is sufficient evidence in this list of variances to substantiate the possibility that Philo did not author "VC".

aa5874

Your claim is wholly erroneous. There is absolutely no claim by Philo that the Therapeutae were Jews or of Jewish origin. The words 'Jew' and 'Jewish' are nowhere in 'VC'.

The Therapeutae had a Shrine in their houses which is NOT a Jewish tradition.

Philo's "On the Contemplative Life"

stephan huller

So the fact that the experts on Philo and early Judaism interpret the text the way Toto and I do says nothing at all for the accuracy of our analysis? Come on this is getting ridiculous. Surely the experts count for something? Are we at that stage of anarchy that we don't even have to put a coherent argument against the plain meaning of the text? Has it degenerated to the point that we can say whatever we want, without any supporting evidence?

The fact that Philo makes efforts to say that the beliefs of the sect are compatible with certain Greek philosophers is hardly surprising. Philo does this everywhere in his writings. But notice no pagan gods or pagan religious practices are mentioned.

mountainman

And then the Romans adopted the Greek gods.


We must not forget that the Christians then REINVENTED this idea of seeing Judaism as special in a BIG way.
This is far more to the point that how the Jews saw themselves. The Christians took the LXX and made the NT.
The Jews may not have been directly involved in this process.



This is a key issue.

It is essentially irrefutable that pagan therapeutae were described by others and themselves as "physicans of bodies and souls".

These people form the foundation of the history of medicine.

(We have an intersect here in the OP with the foundation history of the "Early Christians" - especially in Alexandria)

Whoever authored "VC" undeniably BORROWED this PRESTIGIOUS term from the pagans.

(It is universally admitted that no one knows where the author of "VC" gets the term from and that the author does not clarify)

Do we have any evidence at all that the Jews of antiquity contributed to the science and/or knowledge base of medicine and healing?

(Aside from Jesus and his miracle healings)

Toto

How can you say no one has responded? The rationalist Conybeare definitively refuted the idea that Philo did not write VC on lingistic grounds, and I do recall some dispute as to the idea that Philo's views in VC were different, or other than Jewish.

stephan huller

No aa this just reinforces the relationship that the sect had with the Essenes:

http://books.google.com/books?id=F0u...20east&f=false

It's in fucking Josephus. So Josephus's 'Essenes' who:

are clearly related to the Therapeutae who according to Philo:

What could be clearer than that? Oh, I know the opening statement of the Contemplative Life:

This is how we know they are Jewish. The description of the Therapeutae follows a reference to the Essenes as Philo himself says. That's why both communities pray facing the East. I believe Pliny says the same thing about the Essenes.