drewjmore

Some of christ's attributed statements are quotes from hebrew scripture, but I find no such reference in the OT.

However, Mt 11:28-30
http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?...ontext=context
is a similar phrase to 1st Kings 12 and 2 Chron. 10
http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?...ontext=chapter
http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?...ontext=chapter

there are quite alot of yokes & yoke-breaking in the OT.

NewtonPooton

QUOTE: One possibility is these take up your cross and follow me sayings were never actually spoken by Jesus. They were written by the Gospel writers many years after Jesus had been crucified on the cross.

That's what I think, too. If I would've been around for that, I would've thought the man a lunatic. That cannot possible make any sense to people hearing it. The cross had NO RELIGOUS OR SPIRITUAL context in the day. It was just a way to kill people. And it was probably a big X anyways, right?

So again... it doesn't make ANY sense. Whoever added it later if that is what happened, IMO, was an idiot for not thinking about that. Jesus said so much shit in the NT to make a sane person think he's nuts. I did a painting about it last semester at college. There were a bunch of jesus quotes on the right side, and on the left side were images of jesus, jesus being hung from a tree with two crosses on either side of him with the theives, and then jesus going up into heaven with little cartoon angels flying in circles around him and all around these images were lines right out of the bible about carrying your cross, hating your family, and some other stuff. It was hung in the student center, too. Got a lot of attention. Some of the other students were hurt and saddened to find out I am an athiest. Oh well.

shawn

Chili

The argument still exists that it is for Catholics only so I can see why you are dumbfounded by it.

drewjmore

Is that ROMAN Catholic or ORTHODOX Catholic? (or Catholic in the sense of the whole body of the church?)

Chili

It is for both Roman and Orthodox. The whole body of the church includes those who are dumbfounded by it (Jn.6:66), or, as an alternative will invent their own vehicle to bring some comfort and relief.

motorhead

In thinking further about this, there does seem to be the possibility that Jesus knew he was going to eventually be crucified by the Romans for his preaching and activities. I happen to think Jesus probably knew at some later point in his ministry he was going to be killed for his preaching and activities (e.g. cleansing the temple). If his audience knew he thought this, then the cross sayings would make some sense to them. To his audience, it would mean they should follow the same path, being martyrs for their faith.

You're assuming that every word attributed to Jesus in the NT was actually spoken by him, which I believe it wasn't. I think there are sayings and parables in the NT that go back to Jesus but there's also sayings, commands, etc. that were inserted into the Jesus story of each Gospel.

Plus, most if not all of the sayings and parables that do go back to Jesus were inserted into a context within the stories of each Gospel. This is because the original context was lost to history. For example, recall the story of Jesus walking with his disciples through a cornfield. Jesus speaks in this story but the context (him walking with his disciples through a cornfield) was probably made up by the author. So, the words may be straight from Jesus but the context was made up by the author.

What was the point of the painting? What were you trying to communicate with it? By the way, all the typical sayings of Jesus that atheists bring up to show how Jesus was a nasty guy, most of these sayings do make sense in the context of Jesus time and place, and they're not "hateful" sayings. Now, don't get me wrong, Jesus said some harsh things which people now and even back then might call "hateful".

Amaleq13

"If you want to be crucified, just wait. The cross will come. If it seems reasonable to comply, and the circumstances are right, then it's to be carried through, and your integrity maintained. (Epictetus, [i]Discourses 2.2.20; Oldfather 1.228-231)

There is, therefore, no need to take Jesus' saying as either retrojected or projected prophecy. Jesus, "was discussing," as Leif Vaage put it about Epictetus, "the (possible) consequences of following a certain philosophy...The cost of adopting a particular way of life is...graphically imagined...The fate portrayed...certainly seems a conceivable outcome of the kind of social challenge and outrageous behavior" (1989:173) seen so often throughout this chapter." Crossan, The Historical Jesus, pg 353

pharoah

There's always the possibility that this was a phrase that was easily understood by a 1st century Jew that's obscure to us now. You'll find lots of such obscure phrases sprinkled throughout the Bible.

andrewcriddle

Epictetus is not only post-Christ (early 2nd century CE) but probably had a slight knowlege of Christianity.

His statement does not necessarily prove that 'carrying ones cross' is an idiom independent of Christianity.

Andrew Criddle