Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ApostateAbe · 01-14-2009, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

A BA in Greek Civilization is not a degree in Biblical Studies.

Isn't it superior?

Quote:

And did she not once have to ask Bob Price how one pronounces "Septuagint"? That for me is a good reason to doubt, if not her language claims, then her familiarity with Biblical Studies.

Jeffrey

Who said she was doing "Biblical studies?" She is doing comparative religion.

I personally don't think academic credentials are relevant. They are being debated only because it seems to be important to Dave31, who seems to demand that the critics of Acharya S have more credentials than Acharya S apparently has. No, I certainly don't think that a degree in Greek Civilization is superior to any sort of degree in Biblical Studies when we are talking about comparing religions. In an undergraduate program on Greek Civilization, there is maybe one or two courses on religion and myth. Acharya S graduated from Franklin & Marshall College, and the summaries of the college's listing on the Greek courses makes a very brief mention of religion and myth, and no upcoming courses on those subjects are offered (here). That by no means disqualifies Acharya S from joining the debate and presenting arguments on religion. But it does mean that Dave31 needs a reality check.

Roger Pearse · 01-14-2009, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

A BA in Greek Civilization is not a degree in Biblical Studies.

Isn't it superior?

I wouldn't have thought so. I don't have a high opinion of Biblical Studies, but it would certainly involve compulsory Greek. But "Greek civilisation" -- any schoolboy could do that.

Roger Pearse · 01-14-2009, 05:45 AM

I thought that I would do a quick google for "Acharya S" and see what I could find, with a view to addressing Dave31's comments.

I found this, on Christmas. Perhaps Dave would allow me to raise my concerns about it. Please note that I am not disagreeing with every statement (although much of it is bunk), necessarily; rather with how it is said.

1. There is a curious assertion that the winter solstice ends on 25 Dec. No reference is given, and it sounds very odd.

2. We are told the word 'solstice' means 'sun stands still.' What is the etymology of solstice, that justifies this comment, and in which ancient source is this idea recorded? Julian the Apostate, in his Hymn to King Helios says that the Heliaia occurs after the equinox, when the increase of the length of the days is visible to agriculturalists. You see at once that this last sentence gives information, verifiable and testable (and online); but Acharya's comment takes us nowhere.

3. "Since very ancient times in many cultures around the globe, the sun's birth at the winter solstice has been celebrated with great festivities." What evidence is there for this very large and very vague claim?

4. "This celebration of the sun's return after the darkest days of the year occurred especially in the regions farther away from the equator, such as Northern Europe, where Yuletide festivals are understandably quite pronounced." What are we talking about? Which cultures, when, based on what data, did what?

5. ""Christmas" as the birth of Jesus Christ was not officially adopted until the edict of Julius I in the fifth century, usurping this Pagan holiday ..." What edict might that be? Where can we see it? How do we know that any such 'edict' (surely Popes didn't issue "edicts" in the time of Constantius!?!) had any authority? And Julius I died in 352, according to Wikipedia, in the middle of the fourth century. Which pagan holiday is being usurped, specifically, and how do we know this? Which ancient source records it? Is this a discussion of the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, and if so why is it not named and why is there no discussion of whether this account of the origins of the date of 25 Dec. for Christmas is valid?

6. Why are there NO REFERENCES for any of the claims of fact?

Dave31; do you see why this post is contemptible? It is vague, smug, ignorant and uninformative. These are not trivial points; if Acharya S knew any of the answers, the post itself would be different.

Now some might say that this is a precis of the longer article. But the post is *not* a precis of the article, which takes a different line (and is just as bad about references, and insinuates a great deal); the post has to be dealt with on its own merits.

One bit from the article: "Ancient Greeks celebrated the birthday of Hercules and Dionysus on this date, as the ancient authority Macrobius (c. 400 AD/CE) maintained." Really? And where, precisely, does Macrobius say this?

This sort of thing is why Acharya S enjoys the low reputation she does.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Dave31 · 01-18-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

ApostateAbe "Dave31, if she has a library of material in her bibliography, that is hardly relevant if it is filled with encyclopedias, websites and materials from the 19th century, when she is writing on a first-century topic. 5,555 footnotes! She must be quite a word processor."

That's just another cheap shot - it's all you ever really have to offer when it comes to Acharya's work which only further proves my point: You and others here at FRDB, who are so irrationally biased against Acharya's works are the ones who "drag down" and embarrass the mythicist movement - you know hardly anything about her work let alone the bibliographies in them. This comment that she only uses 19th century sources is and always has been a lie. She has used a variety of sources from ancient times all the way through to the most modern. The dishonesty is disturbing. I can always count on you, Jeffrey and about half a dozen others to smear her work in a sort of pile-on without ever knowing her work.

Carrier's criticism of her work is very seriously flawed but, folks here at FRDB just gloss over it as if it's okay. If the tables were turned around and Acharya made the same egregious error, she would never hear the end of it. There really is a disturbing, hypocritical double-standard at play here concerning her work.

Roger those questions could easily be clarified by actually having read her works. First of all, your first link is merely to a blog where most already know her work.

Christmas: The REAL Reason for the Season
http://tbknews.blogspot.com/2008/12/...or-season.html

The blog is not a precis of the longer EXCERPT titled, The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the "Reason for the Season"
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/christmas.html

I think I can understand why you & others might think it's "bunk" never having actually studied her work but for her to go into all those details in every blog she writes would really get overly monotonous.

At any rate, I'll try to help out.

1. The winter solstice is actually the beginning of the 3 day death and re-birth period when the sun god enters the cave or tomb on the solstice to be re-born or resurrected 3 days later. Most are unaware due to the fact that the winter solstice has been so severely severed from the popular "Christmas" celebration of today putting all of their focus on the 3rd day while omitting the death of the winter solstice itself - Christians save that for Easter. It makes it appear more historical.

2. Just look it up "solstice [Lat.,=sun stands still]"
http://www.reference.com/browse/solstice

It's good that you bring up Julian the Apostate (or via: amazon.co.uk) , The hymn To King Helios was composed at the winter solstice to celebrate the birthday of the Sun on December 25,...

3. & 4. It's old news - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Solstice

5. & 6. It's just a quick blog Roger, not a scholarly journal. The details are in her books which you've clearly never seen.

Quote:

"The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date."

- Catholic Enc.

Quote:

Jeffrey "A BA in Greek Civilization is not a degree in Biblical Studies. And did she not once have to ask Bob Price how one pronounces "Septuagint"? That for me is a good reason to doubt, if not her language claims, then her familiarity with Biblical Studies."

She knows how to pronounce "Septuagint." That's just another cheap shot being tossed at her by the irrational Anti-Acharya cult.

It says here that Acharya

Quote:

"...speaks, reads and/or writes English, Greek, French, Spanish, Italian, German, Portuguese and a smattering of other languages to varying degrees. She has read Euripides, Plato and Homer in ancient Greek, and Cicero in Latin, as well as Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales in Middle English. She has also been compelled to cross-reference the Bible in the original Hebrew and ancient Greek."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/author.htm

So, my point is whether one likes or dislikes her work doesn't matter to me - but being irrationally biased against it to the point of turning into some anti-Acharya cult without ever studied her work is an embarrassment to Freethinkers and the mythicist movement. According to Earl Doherty and Dr. R. Price and others her work is quite valuable. So please, do try and grow up.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/videos.html

"Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance"

- Albert Einstein

ApostateAbe · 01-18-2009, 04:59 PM

Wow, she speaks, reads and/or writes English, Greek, French, Spanish, Italian, German and Portuguese? I just checked out her extended autobiographical credentials on her website.

During my sojourn at F&M, I also studied French and Spanish, as I had done in middle and high school, as well as German, Italian, Latin and ancient Greek. My skills with modern languages were good enough that, during my junior year when I traveled around Europe, I could and did conduct myself in French, Italian, Spanish, German and modern Greek, the latter of which I taught myself while studying in Greece with the Lake Forest College Program under the direction of Professor Emeritus of Religion Rev. Dr. Dan Cole. During that semester abroad, my Greek became good enough that when I answered the phone, people thought I was a Greek boy! (Greek women tend to have high-pitched voices, while I do not.) Moreover, Greek people frequently stopped me on the street and asked me in Greek for directions. In the northern Greek village of Metsovo, where people speak the Slavic language of Vlach first and Greek second, after hearing me speak Greek, one peasant woman asked me if I were a university student from Athens. When I replied that I was an American who had just recently learned the language, she was flabbergasted and insisted that I must be a Greek-American who had known the language from an early age. I further informed her that, no, I was not Greek at all.

The Greeks absolutely loved the fact that I spoke Greek, and they would get tears in their eyes when they communicated with me - some of these people had never spoken to a foreigner before, because they knew no other languages and had never met a foreigner who spoke Greek. One man from an isolated village on the island of Crete wept when he discovered I could speak Greek, as he said he could die in peace knowing that he had finally spoken to a foreigner! This man had lived through World War II, with Germans and Brits occupying his island; yet, he had never spoken to a foreigner, because none of those he'd met spoke Greek. The relief from his isolation was so powerful that it caused him to weep with joy from speaking with me.

Brazen that a member of the anti-Acharya cult smeared her on her ability to pronounce "Septuagint," because we should take her word for it. To help her prove her authority, I move that Acharya S be tested on her knowledge of Greek language basics before she is let in to any committee of Biblical scholarship. That'll show you children.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-18-2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

This comment that she only uses 19th century sources is and always has been a lie. She has used a variety of sources from ancient times all the way through to the most modern.
The blog is not a precis of the longer EXCERPT titled, The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the "Reason for the Season"
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/christmas.html

OK, Dave. Besides a quotation from the RSV translation of John 10:22 and some references to the 1737 Whiston translation of Josephus , AS here cites only the 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia, Robert Graves' universally panned The White Goddess (1946), the "19th century respected Christian author Rev. J.P. Lundy", and an unnamed author of a book entitled [The] Christian Mythology Unveiled which was (apparently self) published in 1842 by one Mitchel Logan [with the glorious subtitle "According to the ignorant prejudices which priestcraft has woven through the human mind, the subjects treated of in the following Lectures are considered as sacred ground by the votaries of superstition; and therefore every attempt to examine them with freedom, or to expose them to the test of reason and free discussion, appears shocking to the blindly bigoted, and alarming to interested priests."] -- all, BTW, available online.

How you think that in this article, she used "the most modern sources" (i.e., the New RGG article on "Christmas", let alone one in the old one, or in the New Catholic Encyclopedia, the ODCC, Pauly Wissowa, ANRW, etc.) is beyond me.

Jeffrey

Yellum Notnef · 01-18-2009, 05:51 PM

Regardless of the level or lack thereof of her scholarship, only a complete retard would believe that Jesus (or anyone else for that matter) is "the reason for the season".

This has to be one of the stupidest phrases that religion has ever given us, but I've a hunch Jeffrey will argue this as well.

ApostateAbe · 01-18-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenton Mulley

Regardless of the level or lack thereof of her scholarship, only a complete retard would believe that Jesus (or anyone else for that matter) is "the reason for the season".

This has to be one of the stupidest phrases that religion has ever given us, but I've a hunch Jeffrey will argue this as well.

We all try to be reasonable. For example, it has been my strong opinion that this is the reason for the season:

My sincere advice is to not believe an argument just because you like the conclusion. The strength of an argument is decided by evidence and logic. Acharya S and her allies certainly have the conclusions that we all love. But she does not have either the logic or the evidence. It is so easy to be distracted by the conclusion.

Yellum Notnef · 01-18-2009, 09:03 PM

[QUOTE=ApostateAbe;5756981]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenton Mulley

Regardless of the level or lack thereof of her scholarship, only a complete retard would believe that Jesus (or anyone else for that matter) is "the reason for the season".

This has to be one of the stupidest phrases that religion has ever given us, but I've a hunch Jeffrey will argue this as well.

We all try to be reasonable. For example, it has been my strong opinion that this is the reason for the season:

I can't imagine any sane person not accepting your opinion on the above (illustrated so nicely) as fact since it is indeed just that.

Quote:

My sincere advice is to not believe an argument just because you like the conclusion. The strength of an argument is decided by evidence and logic. Acharya S and her allies certainly have the conclusions that we all love. But she does not have either the logic or the evidence. It is so easy to be distracted by the conclusion.

I don't know if you were directing this advice towards me, but I don't really care about AS or her conclusions. I didn't even read the link.
I was just ranting (perhaps off topic) how dumb that whole "reason for the season" is when in actuality the reverse has more truth to it.

ApostateAbe · 01-18-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenton Mulley

I don't know if you were directing this advice towards me, but I don't really care about AS or her conclusions. I didn't even read the link. I was just ranting (perhaps off topic) how dumb that whole "reason for the season" is when in actuality the reverse has more truth to it.

Cool, I thought I might have misunderstood.

01-18-2009, 04:59 PM	#25
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Wow, she speaks, reads and/or writes English, Greek, French, Spanish, Italian, German and Portuguese? I just checked out her extended autobiographical credentials on her website. During my sojourn at F&M, I also studied French and Spanish, as I had done in middle and high school, as well as German, Italian, Latin and ancient Greek. My skills with modern languages were good enough that, during my junior year when I traveled around Europe, I could and did conduct myself in French, Italian, Spanish, German and modern Greek, the latter of which I taught myself while studying in Greece with the Lake Forest College Program under the direction of Professor Emeritus of Religion Rev. Dr. Dan Cole. During that semester abroad, my Greek became good enough that when I answered the phone, people thought I was a Greek boy! (Greek women tend to have high-pitched voices, while I do not.) Moreover, Greek people frequently stopped me on the street and asked me in Greek for directions. In the northern Greek village of Metsovo, where people speak the Slavic language of Vlach first and Greek second, after hearing me speak Greek, one peasant woman asked me if I were a university student from Athens. When I replied that I was an American who had just recently learned the language, she was flabbergasted and insisted that I must be a Greek-American who had known the language from an early age. I further informed her that, no, I was not Greek at all. The Greeks absolutely loved the fact that I spoke Greek, and they would get tears in their eyes when they communicated with me - some of these people had never spoken to a foreigner before, because they knew no other languages and had never met a foreigner who spoke Greek. One man from an isolated village on the island of Crete wept when he discovered I could speak Greek, as he said he could die in peace knowing that he had finally spoken to a foreigner! This man had lived through World War II, with Germans and Brits occupying his island; yet, he had never spoken to a foreigner, because none of those he'd met spoke Greek. The relief from his isolation was so powerful that it caused him to weep with joy from speaking with me. Brazen that a member of the anti-Acharya cult smeared her on her ability to pronounce "Septuagint," because we should take her word for it. To help her prove her authority, I move that Acharya S be tested on her knowledge of Greek language basics before she is let in to any committee of Biblical scholarship. That'll show you children.

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01-14-2009, 05:45 AM	#23
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I thought that I would do a quick google for "Acharya S" and see what I could find, with a view to addressing Dave31's comments. I found this, on Christmas. Perhaps Dave would allow me to raise my concerns about it. Please note that I am not disagreeing with every statement (although much of it is bunk), necessarily; rather with how it is said. 1. There is a curious assertion that the winter solstice ends on 25 Dec. No reference is given, and it sounds very odd. 2. We are told the word 'solstice' means 'sun stands still.' What is the etymology of solstice, that justifies this comment, and in which ancient source is this idea recorded? Julian the Apostate, in his Hymn to King Helios says that the Heliaia occurs after the equinox, when the increase of the length of the days is visible to agriculturalists. You see at once that this last sentence gives information, verifiable and testable (and online); but Acharya's comment takes us nowhere. 3. "Since very ancient times in many cultures around the globe, the sun's birth at the winter solstice has been celebrated with great festivities." What evidence is there for this very large and very vague claim? 4. "This celebration of the sun's return after the darkest days of the year occurred especially in the regions farther away from the equator, such as Northern Europe, where Yuletide festivals are understandably quite pronounced." What are we talking about? Which cultures, when, based on what data, did what? 5. ""Christmas" as the birth of Jesus Christ was not officially adopted until the edict of Julius I in the fifth century, usurping this Pagan holiday ..." What edict might that be? Where can we see it? How do we know that any such 'edict' (surely Popes didn't issue "edicts" in the time of Constantius!?!) had any authority? And Julius I died in 352, according to Wikipedia, in the middle of the fourth century. Which pagan holiday is being usurped, specifically, and how do we know this? Which ancient source records it? Is this a discussion of the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, and if so why is it not named and why is there no discussion of whether this account of the origins of the date of 25 Dec. for Christmas is valid? 6. Why are there NO REFERENCES for any of the claims of fact? Dave31; do you see why this post is contemptible? It is vague, smug, ignorant and uninformative. These are not trivial points; if Acharya S knew any of the answers, the post itself would be different. Now some might say that this is a precis of the longer article. But the post is not a precis of the article, which takes a different line (and is just as bad about references, and insinuates a great deal); the post has to be dealt with on its own merits. One bit from the article: "Ancient Greeks celebrated the birthday of Hercules and Dionysus on this date, as the ancient authority Macrobius (c. 400 AD/CE) maintained." Really? And where, precisely, does Macrobius say this? This sort of thing is why Acharya S enjoys the low reputation she does. All the best, Roger Pearse

01-18-2009, 05:51 PM	#27
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	Regardless of the level or lack thereof of her scholarship, only a complete retard would believe that Jesus (or anyone else for that matter) is "the reason for the season". This has to be one of the stupidest phrases that religion has ever given us, but I've a hunch Jeffrey will argue this as well.

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