UV2003

I don't think the issue is them dying for what they knew to be a lie. The issue is did they die for what they believed was true? If the answer is yes, that does not make their belief about historical details true.

The issue of 9-11 is an easy parallel. Do you agree with the terrorists that the trader towers needed to come down? Maybe not, but did they believe that they needed to come down and believe it enough that they were willing to die for it? Apparently so.

Now, what did they base their beliefs on? They based them on their interpretation of historical events that lead to sufficient motivation within their minds to die for their cause. Does that mean everything they have believed was historically true? Of course not.

Whenever someone makes a claim about the ancient times, submit that claim to your modern standard of evidence and see whether it stands the test. If you lived in a time when empirical validation was not as prevalent as it is today, then would you be more prone to believe in the weight of a dramatic and emotionally strong theological story than you'd be today without knowledge of how the universe generally operates? I think most of us would. But, suppose we believed that Judas came back from the dead and went to war for him, would that necessitate that Judas actually came back from the dead? Nope.

Of course it doesn't disprove it either, but it's about probabilities.

UV2003

One other thing I just thought of regarding evidence. The whole time I've been studying Christianity and trying to think about this risen Jesus and the apostles, the one thing I've been forgeting is that people back then actually DID believe in spirits and demons and things, so for them to believe that Jesus was really raised and with them is not a stretch of their beliefs that much.

I mean think of the stretch it would take today. You see someone die and get burried. Someone tells you that he is risen, just like he said he would be, just what is it going to get for you to believe that person is risen? Like Thomas, you're going to have to see the wrists and side. Now, if someone said his spirit is with you, you might be a little less skeptical, but you'd not attach the same weight to that spirit being "with you" as someone might attach to it many years ago.

Jesus cast out demons from a man and they went into a herd of swine. Can we really believe he took demons out of a man and put them into pigs, literally? Again, what would it take today for us to believe that as physical and literal? He stopped waters and walked on waters and multiplied food. Many saints came our of their graves and were seen by many after his resurrection according to Matthew's author. These are incredible claims. They are simply amazing and spectacular. Did they really happen?

-UV

The Evil One

Well yeah, I did kinda miss a trick there. The second option should probably have been

- B is false and X died for it, despite knowing it was false, for no good reason.

Jim Jones, if genuinely aware that his preaching was false, comes under my 6th option:

- X did die for B despite knowing B was false, but had some other motivation to do so (speculate as you wish as to what that might be)

If he was unaware that his preaching was false, comes under the following option:

- X did die for B, but was never in a position to know whether B was true or not (and the idea that X was in such a position is a later embellishment)

(JJ was not in a position to know he was wrong due to being a nutter, and the notion that he was aware he that he was wrong is a misunderstanding rather than an embellishemnt - this option was phrased for an early Christian martyr so the match is not exact, but it's a similar concept).

Ebonmuse

It seems to me that everyone here is missing the most obvious point: Who says the apostles died martyrs' deaths? What evidence - biblical or extra-biblical - is there of this? What evidence is there that these people even existed? We need to establish that this did in fact happen before we begin speculating on the motivations behind it.

The Evil One

Hey Ebonmuse - see options 4 and 7. I got 'em covered

While there is even a possibility that martyrdom legends are not based on fact, they cannot be used as reliable evidence for the truth of the belief in question.

NOGO

Personally, I have no doubt that early Christians suffered martydom.

Basically I believe that Jesus' passion was written as a result of such events. It warns believers that when the time comes they will be tempted into denying their faith in order to live.

Jesus' death, as reported in the Gospels, was a model. A model for people like Paul who are ready to become martyrs before they even hear of the faith. With low self esteem and guilt ridden they look for a cause and a way to redeem their useless lives.

The real Christian faith started as a belief in a Christ which was not a human being.

UV2003

Harsh!
I've wondered the same thing sometimes, then I worry what if it's true anyway :-P