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vid · 07-01-2008, 02:59 AM

This article says that his original Hebrew name is not so sure at all: http://www.messiahtruth.com/name.html

Could some review and comment on it? So far I didn't see any refutation to these arguments. Only problem I see is using Talmud as source for time of Jesus, while Talmud was written down few centuries later. But still pretty few valid claims remain.

wordy · 07-01-2008, 04:13 AM

Jules? that was interesting.

Quote:

it's clear that 7:14 uses the name "Immanuel",

I find that very interesting too. I mean many of the fundies claim they
want to be true to god's words but do they care about this one?

Ok a few churches are named Immanuel.

from wiki of the word

Quote:

Christian belief holds that the Emmanuel is the Messiah foretold in the other prophecies of Isaiah. In Isaiah 8:8, Palestine is called the land of Emmanuel, though in other passage it is termed the land or the inheritance of God,[1] so that Emmanuel and God are identified. Again, in the Hebrew text of Isaiah 8:9-10, the Prophet predicts the futility of all the enemies' schemes against Palestine, because of Emmanuel. In 9:6-7, the characteristics of the child Emmanuel are so clearly described for Christians that they do not doubt his Messianic mission. The eleventh chapter pictures the Messianic blessings which the child Emmanuel will bring upon the earth. Moreover, St Matthew (1:23) expressly identifies the Emmanuel with Jesus the Messiah, and Christian tradition has constantly taught the same doctrine. A number of the Church Fathers, such as St Irenaeus, Lactantius, St Epiphanius, St John Chrysostom, and Theodoret, regarded the name "Emmanuel" not merely as a pledge of Divine assistance, but also as an expression of the mystery of the Incarnation by virtue of which the Messiah will be "God with us".

Christians hold that Emmanuel as described in Isaiah cannot be an ideal or metaphorical person, and cannot be identified with the regenerate people of Israel, nor with religious faith, for "he shall eat butter and honey." It is thought that both the text and the context indicates that the Prophet does not refer to a child in general, but points to an individual.

Christians reject the idea that the name Emmanuel refers to a son of either Isaiah or Ahaz which is the Jewish understanding. As well there are those who believe that Immanuel cannot be Jesus either, for 3 reasons, the first being the angels who spoke to Mary did not say he would be called Immanuel, secondly he was named Jesus by his parents, and finally because in Isaiah 9:6 it is said that "...His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

So they seems to have been against it cause it is too jewish? Are there Jews who
use it in some way that is separating them from the mainstream Jews?

I mean there exists the Reconstructive Jews. Kind of different from the orthodox ones.

I kind of like Emmanuel or Immanuel. "God is with us" sounds like a good thing to have.

spamandham · 07-01-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Did the name 'Jesus' have symbolic importance for the first generation of Christians?

Is that why the name 'Jesus' was chosen by Christians as the best name for their Saviour?

Yes. Jesus means "YHWH's salvation" - a name befitting his role. Note that this follows the same pattern as other legendary Jewish figures, Abraham comes to mind.

Note that in Php. 2:9, the name 'Jesus' is bestowed upon him after he is deemed worthy, following the same formula used throughout the Jewish scriptures for men of renown.

We see the naming of other characters after their roles throughout the Gospels. For reasons I don't understand, this is not generally viewed to be evidence of artistic license.

So if 'Jesus' is his later name, what was his earlier name?

mountainman · 07-04-2008, 12:30 AM

From Fabulating Jesus

Quote:

In the Coptic Gnostic material the names Jesus and Christ are never written in full, but indicated by code such as the letters IS with a bar over them. Scholars routinely fill in the blanks, making IS into I(eseo)S, the Greek form of the Hebrew name Yeshua.

They do so with considerable poetic license, for there is no textual evidence to support the assumption that in Gnostic usage IS indicated a historical person named Ieseos, Jesus.

IS could as well be translated in another way: I(asiu)S, giving the name Iasius, “the healer,” a title rather than a common name. But translators assume that IS indicates Jesus of the New Testament.

In short, scholars do not allow us the chance to consider that IS might indicate anything else but a literal person whose identity is predetermined.

Who is the coptic Healer Lithargoel?

Best wishes,

Pete

Clivedurdle · 07-04-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Matthew 1
21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

Did the name 'Jesus' have symbolic importance for the first generation of Christians?

Is that why the name 'Jesus' was chosen by Christians as the best name for their Saviour?

Well if I was sceptical I'd wonder about this, but we all know how common the names were . . . .

So as Joseph Campbell pointed out long ago, the fact that John the Baptist bears the same name and practices the same rite as Ea (= Oannes, Ionnes, Johannes, Yohanan) the water god, we must put down to coincidence.

Coincidence, too, for the name Capernaum meaning city of comfort, and just happening to be the centre of the ministry of Jesus.

Also coincidence is the prominence of Bethsaida, the House of the Fishermen, where Jesus was directing his followers who he had promised to be fishers of men.

And that Levi the son of Alphaeus should happen to be a tax collector for Romans yet bear a Jewish priestly name and introduce a story about superseding Jewish laws and the unclean is obviously coincidental too.

And equally coincidental is the name of Alphaeus as the father first of Levi who was called but did not make it into the Twelve, and also of another who did, -- the name Alphaeus meaning, coincidentally, "the Designation Given to a Child Thought of As a Substitute for One Lost".

And that the name Jairus means something like Awakened should be the father of the girl said to be sleeping but who was resurrected is also coincidence.

And that Bartimaeus has been interpreted as having a couple of different meanings and that both are used for symbolic commentary on his recovery from his visionary blindness is another coincidence of names.

And that Judas should be the betrayer of Jesus, just as Judah betrayed Joseph, and just as the Jews were said to be the primary culprits in the betrayal and execution of Jesus, is another of a long list of monotonous coincidences.

This list is by no means complete. But just one more . . .

That the leader of the faith that replaced that of Moses should bear the name of the one who, well, replaced Moses and fulfilled the promises of Moses, Jesus, well . . . .

But we must remember how common all these names were. All quite coincidental, of course. (There were probably even lots of Capernaums and Bethsaidas, too!)

Neil

Yes, complete coincidence, and it puts the scientific study of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_determinism

back two thousand years.

Quote:

WE recently came across a new book, Pole Positions - The Polar Regions and the Future of the Planet, by Daniel Snowman. Then, a couple of weeks later, we received a copy of London Under London - A Subterranean Guide, one of the authors of which is Richard Trench. So it was interesting to see Jen Hunt of the University of Manchester stating in the October issue of The Psychologist: "Authors gravitate to the area of research which fits their surname." Hunt's example is an article on incontinence in the British Journal of Urology (vol 49, pp 173-176, 1977) by J. W. Splatt and D. Weedon.[1] (This really does exist. We've checked it.)

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07-01-2008, 02:59 AM	#21
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	This article says that his original Hebrew name is not so sure at all: http://www.messiahtruth.com/name.html Could some review and comment on it? So far I didn't see any refutation to these arguments. Only problem I see is using Talmud as source for time of Jesus, while Talmud was written down few centuries later. But still pretty few valid claims remain.

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