Freethought & Rationalism Archive

la70119 · 05-11-2012, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Two men can be made 'one' in one superficial sense, but it's not a biologically rational sense, so neither should it be supposed that it is a psychologically rational sense.

Define 'biologically rational', please.

stephan huller · 05-11-2012, 01:05 PM

By official I mean a representative of the Church. Someone who established a Christian union, Christian marriage between a man and a woman. I don't think this concept even existed in this period. Marriages between men and women were probably all civil unions.

sotto voce · 05-11-2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Clement's use of philia in the Stromata:

That department of politics which is called "Law," he divides into administrative magnanimity and private good order, which he calls orderliness; and harmony, and sobriety, which are seen when rulers suit their subjects, and subjects are obedient to their rulers; a result which the system of Moses sedulously aims at effecting. Further, that the department of law is founded on generation, that of politics on friendship (φιλίας) and consent, Plato, with the aid he received, affirms [1.25]

There's the Pink Panther, and there's papalism, in the same box. No category error at all.

Toto · 05-11-2012, 01:13 PM

Christian_views_on_marriage dates the first Christian marriage sacrament to the 9th century.

Quote:

Marriage and early Church Fathers

Building on the example of Jesus and Paul, first-century Christians placed less value on the family, and rather saw celibacy and freedom from family ties as a preferable state.

Nicene Fathers such as Augustine believed that marriage was a sacrament because it was a symbol used by Paul to express Christ's love of the Church. However, there was also an apocalyptic dimension in his teaching, and he was clear that if everybody stopped marrying and having children that would be an admirable thing; it would mean that the Kingdom of God would return all the sooner and the world would come to an end.[36] Such a view reflects the Manichaean past of Augustine.

Both Tertullian and Gregory of Nyssa were church fathers who were married. They each stressed that the happiness of marriage was ultimately rooted in misery. They saw marriage as a state of bondage that could only be cured by celibacy. They wrote that at the very least, the virgin woman could expect release from the "governance of a husband and the chains of children."[37] : p.151 Tertullian argument that second marriage "consists essentially in fornication" is seen to extend to the first and lawful marriage.[38]

Some Fathers of the Church advocated celibacy and virginity as preferable alternatives to marriage. Jerome wrote: "It is not disparaging wedlock to prefer virginity. No one can make a comparison between two things if one is good and the other evil."[39] St. John Chrysostom wrote: "...virginity is better than marriage, however good.... Celibacy is...an imitation of the angels. Therefore, virginity is as much more honorable than marriage, as the angel is higher than man. But why do I say angel? Christ, Himself, is the glory of virginity."[40]

Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, said that the first commandment given to men was to increase and multiply, but now that the earth was full there was no need to continue this process of multiplication.[41]

This view of marriage was reflected in the lack of any formal liturgy formulated for marriage in the early Church. No special ceremonial was devised to celebrate Christian marriage—despite the fact that the Church had produced liturgies to celebrate the Eucharist, Baptism and Confirmation. It was not important for a couple to have their nuptials blessed by a priest. People could marry by mutual agreement in the presence of witnesses.[36]

At first, the old Roman pagan rite was used by Christians, although modified superficially. The first detailed account of a Christian wedding in the West dates from the 9th century. This system, known as Spousals, persisted after the Reformation.[36]

stephan huller · 05-11-2012, 01:14 PM

Another explanation of the same mystical 'brother making' process by means of love:

Quote:

For, if it were a mere human habit, as the Greeks supposed, it would have been extinguished. But if it grow, and there be no place where it is not; then I affirm, that faith, whether founded in love, or in fear, as its disparagers assert, is something divine; which is neither rent asunder by other mundane friendship (φιλίας κοσμικῆς), nor dissolved by the presence of fear. For love, on account of its friendly alliance with faith (τὴν πίστιν φιλίᾳ), makes men believers; and faith, which is the foundation of love, in its turn introduces the doing of good (τὴν εὐποιίαν); since also fear, the paedagogue of the law, is believed to be fear by those, by whom it is believed. For, if its existence is shown in its working, it is yet believed when about to do and threatening, and when not working and present; and being believed to exist, it does not itself generate faith, but is by faith tested and proved trustworthy. Such a change, then, from unbelief to faith -- and to trust in hope and fear, is divine. And, in truth, faith is discovered, by us, to be the first movement towards salvation; after which fear, and hope, and repentance, advancing in company with temperance and patience, lead us to love and knowledge. Rightly, therefore, the Apostle Barnabas says, "From the portion I have received I have done my diligence to send by little and little to you; that along with your faith you may also have perfect knowledge. [2.6]

stephan huller · 05-11-2012, 01:17 PM

Thank you Toto. I have been thinking about this for sometime. It is amazing when you see it spelled out like that in bold letters. It is amazing how stupid these opponents of same sex marriage ON RELIGIOUS GROUNDS. These people act like Christianity is simply carrying over of Judaism. I was really trying to find an example of an early Christian marriage involving a man and a woman and couldn't. Now I know why

sotto voce · 05-11-2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Christian_views_on_marriage dates the first Christian marriage sacrament to the 9th century.

Not Christian, then.

stephan huller · 05-11-2012, 01:26 PM

It is amazing to see how consistently ritualized Christian love, friendship and brotherhood appears in Clement's writings.

Quote:

Such a fear, accordingly, leads to repentance and hope. Now hope is the expectation of good things, or an expectation sanguine of absent good; and favourable circumstances are assumed in order to good hope, which we have learned leads on to love (τὴν ἀγάπην χειραγωγεῖν μεμαθήκαμεν). Now love turns out to be consent in what pertains to reason (ἀγάπη δὲ ὁμόνοια ἂν εἴη τῶν κατὰ τὸν λόγον), life, and manners, or in brief, fellowship in life (κοινωνία βίου), or it is the intensity of friendship and of affection (ἐκτένεια φιλίας καὶ φιλοστοργίας), with right reason, in the enjoyment of associates (περὶ χρῆσιν ἑταίρων).

And an associate is another self (ἑταῖρος ἕτερος ἐγώ); just as we call those, brethren, who are regenerated by the same word (ᾗ καὶ ἀδελφοὺς τοὺς τῷ 2.9.41.3 αὐτῷ λόγῳ ἀναγεννηθέντας προσαγορεύομεν). And akin to love is hospitality, being a congenial an devoted to the treatment of strangers. And those are strangers, to whom the things of the world are strange. For we regard as worldly those, who hope in the earth and carnal lusts. "Be not conformed," says the apostle, "to this world: but be ye transformed in the renewal of the mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Hospitality, therefore, is occupied in what is useful for strangers; and guests (epixenoi) are strangers (xenoi); and friends are guests; and brethren are friends. "Dear brother," says Homer.

Philanthropy, in order to which also, is natural affection, being a loving treatment of men, and natural affection, which is a congenial habit exercised in the love of friends or domestics, follow in the train of love. And if the real man within us is the spiritual, philanthropy is brotherly love to those who participate, in the same spirit. Natural affection, on the other hand, the preservation of good-will, or of affection; and affection is its perfect demonstration; and to be beloved is to please in behaviour, by drawing and attracting. And persons are brought to sameness by consent, which is the knowledge of the good things that are enjoyed in common. For community of sentiment (omognwmosunh) is harmony of opinions (sumfwnia gnwmpn). "Let your love be without dissimulation," it is said; "and abhorring what is evil, let us become attached to what is good, to brotherly love," and so on, down to "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, living peaceably with all men." Then "be not overcome of evil," it is said, "but overcome evil with good." And the same apostle owns that he bears witness to the Jews, "that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God." For they did not know and do the will of the law; but what they supposed, that they thought the law wished. And they did not believe the law as prophesying, but the bare word; and they followed through fear, not through disposition and faith. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness," who was prophesied by the law to every one that believeth. Whence it was said to them by Moses, "I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are not a people; and I will anger you by a foolish nation, that is, by one that has become disposed to obedience." And by Isaiah it is said, "I was found of them that sought Me not; I was made manifest to them that inquired not after Me," -- manifestly previous to the coming of the Lord; after which to lsrael, the things prophesied, are now appropriately spoken: "I have stretched out My hands all the day long to a disobedient and gainsaying people." Do you see the cause of the calling from among the nations, clearly declared, by the prophet, to be the disobedience and gainsaying of the people? Then the goodness of God is shown also in their case. For the apostle says, "But through their transgression salvation is come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy," and to willingness to repent. And the Shepherd, speaking plainly of those who had fallen asleep, recognises certain righteous among Gentiles and Jews, not only before the appearance of Christ, but before the law, in virtue of acceptance before God, -- as Abel, as Noah, as any other righteous man. He says accordingly, "that the apostles and teachers, who had preached the name of the Son of God, and had fallen asleep, in power and by faith, preached to those that had fallen asleep before." Then he subjoins: "And they gave them the seal of preaching.

They descended, therefore, with them into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those, who had fallen asleep before, descended dead, but ascended alive. By these, therefore, they were made alive, and knew the name of the Son of God. Wherefore also they ascended with them, and fitted into the structure of the tower, and unhewn were built up together; they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity, but wanted only this seal." "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves," according to the apostle. [2.9]

sotto voce · 05-11-2012, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It is amazing to see how consistently ritualized Christian love

Ritualized Christian love!

:applause:

stephan huller · 05-11-2012, 01:35 PM

For the affection in animals (φιλοστοργία τοῖς ζῴοις) to their progeny is natural, and the friendship of kindred minds (τοῖς ὁμογνώμοσι φιλία) is the result of intimacy (συνηθείας). But the mercy of God (= Jesus) is rich toward us (θεοῦ δὲ ὁ ἔλεος εἰς ἡμᾶς πλούσιος), who are in no respect related to Him; I say either in our essence (οὐσίᾳ) or nature, or in the peculiar energy of our essence (οἰκείᾳ τῆς οὐσίας ἡμῶν), but only in our being the work of His will (τῷ ἔργον εἶναι τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ). And him who willingly, with discipline (ἀσκήσεως) and teaching, accepts the knowledge of the truth, He calls to adoption, which is the greatest advancement of all. [2.16]

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05-11-2012, 01:05 PM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	By official I mean a representative of the Church. Someone who established a Christian union, Christian marriage between a man and a woman. I don't think this concept even existed in this period. Marriages between men and women were probably all civil unions.

05-11-2012, 01:17 PM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Thank you Toto. I have been thinking about this for sometime. It is amazing when you see it spelled out like that in bold letters. It is amazing how stupid these opponents of same sex marriage ON RELIGIOUS GROUNDS. These people act like Christianity is simply carrying over of Judaism. I was really trying to find an example of an early Christian marriage involving a man and a woman and couldn't. Now I know why

05-11-2012, 01:35 PM	#20
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	For the affection in animals (φιλοστοργία τοῖς ζῴοις) to their progeny is natural, and the friendship of kindred minds (τοῖς ὁμογνώμοσι φιλία) is the result of intimacy (συνηθείας). But the mercy of God (= Jesus) is rich toward us (θεοῦ δὲ ὁ ἔλεος εἰς ἡμᾶς πλούσιος), who are in no respect related to Him; I say either in our essence (οὐσίᾳ) or nature, or in the peculiar energy of our essence (οἰκείᾳ τῆς οὐσίας ἡμῶν), but only in our being the work of His will (τῷ ἔργον εἶναι τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ). And him who willingly, with discipline (ἀσκήσεως) and teaching, accepts the knowledge of the truth, He calls to adoption, which is the greatest advancement of all. [2.16]

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