bacht

Works for me. By the 90s we probably have Jewish-Christians or just gentile Christians in diaspora nodes like Syria, Asia Minor or Rome. The Logos people might be around then also, maybe in Alexandria.

Toto

To be exact, what Pliny says: I read this as - "maybe I was a Christian, but that was YEARS ago, 25 years AT LEAST, surely the statute of limitations has run, I'll do whatever you say guv'nor . . . "

An anonymous report and witnesses who could be tortured are hardly reliable evidence for anything, much less that Christianity existed 20 years before Pliny's interrogations.

DCHindley

I thought they (the Jesus Seminar) were already doing that.

Per their web site, "The Paul Seminar is considering the authenticity and integrity of the Pauline letters." There is almost nothing about it at the Westar site. N T Wright describes it as "The authenticity and integrity of the Pauline letters will be examined according to the Jesus Seminar methodology." It looks like it has been subsumed under the Christian Origins Seminar per Bob McElwain. I don't get the impression they want to deal with Paul directly, only Acts and how Paul is portrayed in it.

DCH

aa5874

Against Heresies 3.13.1 It was Irenaeus, the very writer who does not know the truth, in Against Heresies that made the claim that the Marcionites thought Paul alone knew the truth.

Irenaeus has no credibilty.

Whatever he claimed about Marcion is just as erroneous as his claims about the authorship, date of writing and order of the Gospels. Irenaeus claims about Marcion are likely to be just as false as his claims about the date of writing, and authorship of the Pauline Epistles.

It would appear that Marcion did not ever see any Pauline Epistles or Gospels according to any named author. Irenaeus used Marcion, a historical figure of the 2nd century, to try to authenticate the Gospel called Luke, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters which were appear to have been fabricated prescisely for the compilation of Church History.

No Marcionite ever saw Against Heresies by Irenaeus in the 2nd century. Marcion and the Marcionites, along with the so-called heretics, were used by the Church writers in the same manner that they used historical figures like Pilate, and Herod to historicise their God/man Jesus.

jakejonesiv

Thank you!

jakejonesiv

The Party of Christ and Another Jesus

The traditional story of Christian origins is relatively harmonious. It is assumed that the seven "authentic" Pauline epistles were written by Paul mainly in the 50's CE, and that all subsequent Christianity developed sequentially from Paul's Christ cults. Paul, it is avered, had joined a previously existing sect headquartered in Jerusalem and Paul had learned the traditions from them on a visit a few years after his coversion. Paul and the Pillars (James, Cephas, John) were in agreement in all the essentials of Christianity, and differed only a few minor points of "table mannners." These differences were easily smoothed out at a counsel in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and thereafter the apostles went forth to evangelize the world in harmony of doctrine.

Thus we are told, but nothing could be further from the truth.

In First and Second Corinthians, we have record of an early direct assault on Pauline Christianity by very powerful opponents. These opponents could not have derived their doctrines from Paul, nor from the "Jerusalem church." We must not underestimate the threat; Pauline Christianity was threatened in its core beliefs by a Christianity totally at odds with it in fundamentals. Paul's churches were threatened with utter destrruction.

If it is assumed that these epistles were written in the 50's CE, the opponents are very strange Christians indeed. They invade the Corinthian communities' assembly and holler, "Jesus be damned!" They can do this only because the Jesus thus accursed is not their Christ. It is the Pauline Jesus and his crucifixion that is damned! They preach "another Jesus."

The opponents come to Corinth in the name of a chief Apostle whose name has been erased from the extant text.

"For if HE that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another Spirit, which we have not received, ar another Gospel, which we have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." 2 Cor. 11:4.

The unnamed apostle is the proxy head of the Party of Christ (1 Cor. 1:12, 2:2), and his representatives are known as "the ministers of Christ." 2 Cor. 11:23. They came to Corinth to reject the Pauline apostolate, which the consider foolishness (2 Cor. 11:16). One takes away the impression that the Party of Christ considers Paul's crucified savior a novelty and a totally unnecessary innovation. They reject the cross as utter folly (1:18) and instead preach a gospel of Perfection through Wisdom (2:6) and the keeping of the Law. Thus they demand that all male memebers be circumcised.

The Party of Christ is a mature sect. There doctrines are wise according to the world (i.e logical) and the delivery is practiced and polished. 2 Cor. 2:1. They have been at this for a while. And this point is crucial. Their Christ was not crucified. Indeed, "Cursed is he that hangs on a tree." cf. Deut 21:23. Thus they say, by the Spirit of God "Jesus be accursed!" 1 Cor. 12:3.

The Party of Christ is contemptuous of Paul. They are puffed up and say Paul is weak (2 Cor. 11:29) and will never return (1 Cor. 4:18). Paul is always just over the horizon, in prison, in peril, perhaps in Rome, perhaps in Spain ( Romans (15:23-28) in the fartherest reaches of the West--1 Clement 5:7--(as were the Elysian Fields); rumored dead many times --drowned, stoned, beheaded, martyred by wild Beasts (2 Cor. 11:23 ff, 1 Corinthians 15:32). Or beheaded.

But the Party of Christ has underestimated Paul. Although Paul is absent in body, he is present in Spirit and comes in terrifying epistles through the pens of Sothenes and Timothy, executing judgement. His disciples bear fresh epistles that show the Apostle Paul is no whit less formidable than the Apostle of the Party of Christ.

______________________________________

Paul the Savior

By the time of the Corinthian epistles, much has developed in the doctrine of the person of Paul, indicating that his legendary death was long past.

Paul is rumored dead. He is "absent in body but present in spirit" (1 Cor. 5:3). To be "absent from the body" is to be "present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). But just as Jesus will have a future coming (1 Cor. 4:5), so also will Paul (1 Cor. 4:19).

Paul has many of the attributes of divinity, including being the Father of believers, who are his beloved sons whom he has begotten whom he calls to follow me. (1 Cor. 4:14-16. cf Mark 1:11, 17; Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33, Heb 1:5; 5:5). The spirit of Paul has the authority to judge a man and deliver him to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. 1 Cor. 5:4-5.

The “spirit of Paul” sent forth his own emissaries in the form of the bearers of his posthumous letters. The epistles in reality were written by later followers, channeling what Paul “would have said;” e.g. 1 Corinthians was written by Sosthenes, 2 Corinthians by Timothy, Romans by Tertius. The bearers of these letters would use them as credentials with the various Pauline churches. We see this in the “fill in the blank” ______ brother of 2 Corinthians 12:18 noted by R.Price.

There are multiple reports of his death. Paul was attributed with super human powers of regeneration. Either that, or he had reportedly died many times before.

2 Corinthians 11:23-26
23 …I more; in labours more abundantly, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, IN DEATHS MANY TIMES;
24 from Jews five times forty [stripes] save one I did receive;
25 thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice was I shipwrecked, a night and a day in the deep I have passed;
26 journeyings many times, perils of rivers, perils of robbers, perils from kindred, perils from nations, perils in city, perils in wilderness, perils in sea, perils among false brethren;

Paul, like the fictitious Pauline copy-cat Ignatius, had been martyred by the wild beasts; Paul in Ephesus in Asia Minor. “… I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not?” , 1 Cor. 15:31-32.

How, the readers of the epistles asked, if Paul had died (multiple times, even daily like Jesus in the Eucharist 1 Cor. 15:31) had he still been able to send epistles? The answer is that Paul had been resurrected!

2 Corinthians 1:8-9
8: For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
9: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead:
10: Who delivered us out of so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

The risen Jesus Christ communicated through the ecstatic utterances of spirit filled prophets. In a similar but unique method, the risen Paul communicated through terrifying posthumous letters. 2 Cor. 10:9. It is Paul’s “signature move.”

2 Corinthians 13
1: This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2: I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

Did you see that? Paul had come to the Corinthians three times by epistles, each constituting a separate witness to Paul’s message. If the “comings” had been physical visits by the historical Paul, or even if all the letters to the Corinthians had been written by the alleged historical Paul, the appeal to “two or three witnesses” would be meaningless.

There is even a concern and an apology for the delay of Paul’s parousia!
2 Corinthians 12
14: Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you…
20: For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would…
21: And lest, when I come again…
Note the similarity to the Son of Man saying in Lk 18:8.

How Christ-like is he? When Paul does come again, he will spare not the judgment of the sinners.
2 Corinthians 13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare.

Cerinthus had met his match.

_______________________________

The Takeway

If the Pauline epistles are inauthentic, then the first century Christ cult becomes hypothetical and we must cut anchor and turn our attention to the second century.

It is decidely strange that scholars think they know in great detail exactly what transpired in Christian history before The Roman-Jewish war of 70 CE, but then there is a generation of impenatrable silence before we pick up the first faint glimmers of Christianity again. That is the opposite of what one would expect, that the 70 CE war would have destroyed almost all of the prior evidence but after that the trail would be clear.

Most people could name many Christian leaders before 70 CE with a little thought. Most people could also name many church leaders of the second century with just a little research. But who were the leaders of the 70's and 80's and 90's? This was the time when Christianity allegedly swept its way across the Roman empire. Aside from a few names on a list (like Linus of which nothing more is known) the record is blank. Not until we reach the disputed epistle of 1 Clement, and most scholars will admit that "Clement" didn't write it! Where did all the Christians go?

The answer is quite simple. They didn't go anywhere, because they didn't yet exist. Christianity arose in the late first century/early second century, and origins were cast back behind the screen of the Jewish-Roman war of 70 CE. It made it impossible to check sources, so they worked with a blank canvas. Josephus was utilized to provide historical flavor.

Jake Jones IV

Toto

The digression on the question of consensus has been split off here.

rlogan

Heh - well food for thought there on the suggestion. Always wise to put it before us in it's exact form. I think we agree on the import of the correspondence as to a historical anchor on christianity.

It seems to me the full description of how thoroughly it has swept across the social strata is consistent with it having been maturing for a while.

I think jakejonesiv is being pretty reasonable in calling it "late first century/early second century" phenomenon. We can start talking about the literature development in the second century then. At least we'll be in the right century.

spamandham

From what I've seen, even those of us arguing for a later date for the canonical texts, do not place a no-earlier-than date for the existence of some kind of Christianity.

There's nothing particularly implausible about the existence of Christianity in the 1st century, even if the canonical texts are 2nd century. However, we need to have reasons to conclude it true. Plausibility is not enough.

bacht

Right. As Spam says it's not implausible that Christianity started in the 1st C, it's just that there are other equally plausible scenarios.

I don't think we have to discard Paul completely. A reconstruction which posits early Christians meeting in synagogues post-70 is reasonable. Paul would then represent the anti-torah wing of gentile Christianity which eventually split (after bar-Kochba?) and formed the proto-catholic church. Apocalyptic Jewish-Christians like the author of Revelation could've been a small minority.

Or, Paul was a fiction created by heresiologists to fight Marcion and gnosticism in the mid-2nd C. Again this explanation fits the evidence easily enough. The later practice of building churches over the foundations of pagan temples seems relevant: Corinthians as response to Cerinthus, Apollos as response to Apelles, Paul himself as response to Simon Magus or Marcion.