Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xunzian · 06-09-2007, 11:41 AM

Well, yes, there were a bunch of ecumenical councils after Nicea. But we can start talking about a canon with Constantine in a way that we can't talk about a canon pre-Constantine.

Clouseau · 06-09-2007, 12:16 PM

[QUOTE=Roger Pearse;4523206]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

It was conveyed to you and to me in the New Testament, and in no other way.

Quote:

Even before it was written?

You and I are not that old! Obviously oral transmission was the only sort initially, but Scripture was thought no less important, as the quotes show, and as the apostles died, Scripture was left as the only reliable witness to their teaching. That is the only reliable source left to you and me.

Quote:

Incidentally I would be grateful if you do not edit my remarks in such a way as to make them state a view that I do not hold. Omitting the remainder of my sentence was just such an edit. I don't know who you imagine received the very first copies of the NT books, if not persons authorised by the apostles, for use in their churches.

There is no evidence at all for this. Paul wrote to 'the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus'; to 'all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints'; to 'all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons'; not to some individual or small group of individuals. When James wrote to the diaspora, he may have known few, if any, of the people who would initially receive it.

Roger Pearse · 06-09-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

You and I are not that old! Obviously oral transmission was the only sort initially, but Scripture was thought no less important, as the quotes show, and as the apostles died, Scripture was left as the only reliable witness to their teaching. That is the only reliable source left to you and me.

I agree with that. Prior to the apostles death, the situation must have been less clear, after all.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle · 06-09-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure. When the books were written, the apostles were still alive. Indeed even in the early 2nd century, Papias can prefer 'a living voice' to written accounts.

Evidence?

aa5874 · 06-09-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Christianity was illegal until Constantine.

Never believe a Catholic.

Clivedurdle · 06-09-2007, 01:49 PM

Clouseau - who wrote Hebrews?

Clouseau · 06-09-2007, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Clouseau - who wrote Hebrews?

Is that question related to this thread?

aa5874 · 06-09-2007, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Assuming we have authors in antiquity writing about the good news
why do you suppose the publication of the package now known as
the bible, consistent of the Hebrew Bible plus the New Testament,
was not enacted by someone before Constantine c.331 CE?

According to Irenaeus in 'Against Heresies', there were numerous persons who taught about all sorts of characters named Jesus. These person had developed their teachings and had writings of their brand of Christianity.

These are some of the people or groups that were spreading their version of the gospel of Christ, according to Irenaeus, in the 2nd century:

Valentinus
Basilides
Ptolemy and Colorbasus
Marcus
Simon Magus and Menander
Saturinus
Capocrates
Cerinthus, the Ebionites and the Niclaitanes
Cerdo and Marcion
Tatian and the Encraites
Barbeliotes
Ophites and the Sethians
Cainites

There was no need for the compilation called the NT, there was enough 'good news' to spread around. The NT was only possible through the collusion of Church and State and that's 'bad news' to me.

Clouseau · 06-09-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The NT was only possible through the collusion of Church and State

Very strange that the State spent so long trying to suppress its following, then.

Clivedurdle · 06-09-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Very strange that the State spent so long trying to suppress its following, then.

Where do you get these fantasies? Romans were eclectic collectors of religions. All they asked was that you acknowledge the emperor as a god - not to was treachery. And xians were no worse treated than the myriads who died in the games or in wars or in torture or executions.

See it as road kill - it wasn't only aimed at xians - the target was anyone who broke the rules or fitted a "may be killed" category.

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06-09-2007, 11:41 AM	#41
xunzian Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,691	Well, yes, there were a bunch of ecumenical councils after Nicea. But we can start talking about a canon with Constantine in a way that we can't talk about a canon pre-Constantine.

06-09-2007, 01:49 PM	#46
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Clouseau - who wrote Hebrews?

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