RUmike

Maybe the comment in the Wiki should remain as some sort of strange irony... the Book of Acts testifies that Jesus' first followers, after his death, became the first communists!

Vorkosigan

Is Engels representative of mythicists? That's a new one. Why does it matter whether Peron and Engels have the same status? The point is that the sentence connects mythicism to communism purposely, although the two have nothing to do with each other. Plenty of people of all intellectual stripes have been mythicists. Why mention Engels? Smear.

Please explain what it is doing there, if it is not a smear.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

The reason is clear, Don. There isn't any need to insert Engel's name there as he has nothing to do with mythicism in any way, shape or form. The whole idea is simply to associate one idea with the other. Am I the only person here with any background in deconstructing this kind of rhetoric? Or what?

Please explain what rational reason there is to mention Engels and to re-insert it once deleted.

Vorkosigan

GakuseiDon

I think it is an interesting tidbit of information, but I tend to agree with you. (My earlier comments were off-thread, apologises for that).

Roger Pearse

I can see that you feel this, but I suggest that this is oversensitive. Possibly communism is more unacceptable in your society than it is in the (admittedly left-controlled) society I live in?

All I can tell you is that I don't think it's derogatory. No-one much believes in mythicism, so to learn that so mainstream a figure in the development of western thought as Friedrich Engels took a look at it is interesting. That's it.

Incidentally I do not hold a doctorate, or indeed any relevant qualification for what I do online.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto

Hi Roger - things are very different on this side of the pond, where we still have not recovered from the anti-Red scare of the 1950's. Calling someone a Communist or associating them with Communism is about the worst thing one can do in US politics.

It is a current tactic of the right in the US to try to link their opponents with Communism whenever possible, just by adding a few words, even if there is no real connection - it is a form of subliminal negative advertising. George Lakoff has provided the details of how this works - e.g, in Don't Think of an Elephant

So I would say that mentioning Engels is a deliberate tactic to smear mythicists by associating them with Communists.

youngalexander

Some of my best friends are communists. It is really not a big deal in OZ.
One the other hand, sombf are Christians (altho I don't know any fundies). Also, come to think of it, sombf are anti-communists (& christians). Personally I don't think old Karl was such a bad chap and I paid a visit to Fred's house near Primrose Hill a few years ago, just for old times sake.

On the whole I am inclined to agree with (Doc) Pearse and ac, but I can see the point you & Vork are making. As of 30s ago Marx & Engels are still expunged.

newtype_alpha

I'm not much of a historian or anything, but am I the only one here who senses just a hint of irony in this discussion? The "scholarly ethics" of fundies, apparently, involves making reference to one of the most influential and controversial thinkers of our time and depicts the origins of a theory that, today, isn't widely recieved. Is it ethical or honest to expunge references to controversial figures and their influence on that theory in order to make that theory look better?

If Marx or Engels were irrelevant figures who caused nothing but trouble and have nothing whatsoever to do with the theory or the origin thereof, then by all means remove them. Unfortunately, Marx--despite the controversy around him--is still a massively influential figure both directly and vicariously through other socialist movements and thinkers. I think you'll find that quite a number of the mythicists in the late 19th and early 20th century were also symapthetic to socialism. Great minds think alike, sometimes.

yalla

youngalex
"Some of my best friends are communists. It is really not a big deal in OZ."

Still used as a smear tactic tho.
For example [Costello?] calling the Greens "watermelons"...green on the outside, pink [or red I forget the detail] on the inside" at the last election.

youngalexander

True, but who gives a bugger about Costello [or Abbot for that matter].
Hey, little bit o' aussie humor there, eh y?