Decypher

Would you like to show how it fits with the Transfiguration?

If so, go through the parts of Matthew 16:27-28 (and parallel verses) and match up what you can with the Transfiguration accounts.

I will then try to do the same, but comparing Matthew 16:27-28 with the Olivet Discourse.

sschlichter

why would you separate out 27 and 28 from rest of the passage. Is there any reason to think that 26,25,24,23,22 are not part of the same thought as 27. If we are going to be selective then why not just do verse 28 alone.

~Steve

Decypher

Lets look at one thing you said:

"The only people standing there were the diciples"

The version of Mark has:

So Jesus wasn't only with the disciples. Not in the version of Mark at least.

You want to talk about "misconceptions", but it seems your the one guilty of them.

Decypher

If you look at the verses that are immediately before:

These verses may have a connection to 27 and 28, but there is a distinction between them. Matthew 16:24-26 is giving religious instruction. It isn't talking about an event. In Matthew 16:27-28 it is talking about an event where the "son of man" will come.

sschlichter

I think your desire to link this too forcibly with the Olivet Discourse is making you think that. The religious instruction is completely on-topic. I.e. the cost of kingdom living. ie picking up your cross and following. Both the Olivet Discourse, the transfiguration, and this passage are about the Kingdom. To separate out the last 2 verses because they fit your argument makes no sense. Again, why not just separate out the last one because it fits the transfiguration better.

Follow me, because I am going to enter into my Kingdom, but the cost is high. However, rest assured I will enter into my Kingdom. Tell you what, let me show you 3 what I mean...(end scene) (cue Elijah) next scene. transfiguration.

~steve

Decypher

I didn't deny there could be a connection between verses 24/25/26 with verses 27/28, but there is also a distinction as I said. Verses 27/28 are talking about an event where the "Son of man" comes. The previous verses aren't talking about that, even if there is a subject connection.

I'm separating the last two verses, because they are both talking about an event where the "Son of man" comes.

Actually, even if you take verse 28 by itself, it still fits with the Olivet Discourse better. But as verse 27 also fits with the Olivet Discourse, I see them as connected and talking about the same event. That is why I consider the two verses together.

Decypher

Lets do a comparison using only Matthew 16:28 and its parallel verse Mark 9:1, and compare it with the Olivet Discourse material, (Matthew 24/25, Mark 13, Luke 21). I am going to look at the different elements of the verse (and its parallel) and show that they line up very well with the Olivet Discourse.

(1) People will "see the Son of man coming".


(2) Timing is stated emphatically (as the preterism article said). "Verily I say unto you..."


(3) An equivalent kind of prediction is given about the time of the event. (I know the meaning of Matthew 24:34 "this generation" is controverisal. I am using a plausible interpretation of it.)

(4) The Kingdom of God will come.

(5) The Kingdom will come with power

I don't think I missed anything. I think everything in Matthew 16:28 connects with the Olivet Discourse.

I would be interested to see you match up those things with the Transfiguration accounts. And I don't mean you speculating and saying that you think the kingdom came at the Transfiguration. I would like to see verses which clearly say that the kingdom came, that it came with power etc.

And lets also look at Matthew 16:27.

d-ray

Last night I was re-reading the Apocalypse of Peter from Ehrman's "Lost Scriptures". This is the "proto-orthodox" Apocalypse of Peter, not to be confused with the Coptic/Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (could Peter never make up his mind?). This apocalypse gives a version of the Olivet Discourse,and I noted that the statement, "In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away, all these things will happen" (or however it's worded in your translation) was absent.
Perhaps a later writer was a bit bothered by the fact that this prophecy hadn't been fulfilled? As to the date of this writing, the best indication I found was 2nd century, but nothing more precise than that. The text itself gives a clue: referring to the Jews, "And when they perceive the wickedness of their deeds, they shall turn away and deny him whom our fathers praised, the first Christ whom they crucified and therein sinned a great sin." (Trans. J.K. Elliott) Make of this what you can, especially since it's Jesus speaking here.

sschlichter

(1) People will "see the Son of man coming".

erkomenon = accompany, appear, come. I am not arguing against the word “coming” but notice that the greek word can have the flavor of the word appear as well. coming works as well but I wanted to point that out. I think you will see that the Kingdom is referred to in the New Testament as already come as well. the only use of the word is not future physical Kingdom.

This is where Jesus appeared "bright shining" to 'those who will not see death'. This was a preview of his coming Kingdom

Matt 17:2
Mark 9:2
Luke 9:29

(2) Timing is stated emphatically (as the preterism article said). "Verily I say unto you..."

Has nothing to do with the content and refers emphatically to whatever is the case in #1. Emphatics are used all through the NT and all through English. This I know to be true, the use of an emphatic occurs outside of the context of the Olivet Discourse.

(3) An equivalent kind of prediction is given about the time of the event.

“Equivalent kind of” is an oxymoron. It is a similar kind of prediction which is fulfilled for those individuals in question.

(4) The Kingdom of God will come.

Matt 17:3. Then Moses and Elijah also appeared before them, talking with him. The appearance of the ‘sum of the prophets’ was meant to indicate fulfillment of the promised Kingdom.

(5) The Kingdom will come with power

“like the sun” Matt 17:3
“bright cloud overshadowed them” Matt 17:5
“voice from the cloud” Matt 17:5
Power caused disciples to be ”overwhelmed with fear” Matt 17:6

Let’s also do the same for the verse that comes right after Matt 16:28.

I would like to know what you consider the authors intention is in Matt 17 , if not an a preview of the kingdom and fulfillment of the immediately preceding statement in all 3 gospels.

~Steve

Decypher

Could you produce a verse, from the Transfiguration accounts, which says they "see the Son of man coming"?

I agree that "kingdom" may be used in more than one way in the NT. How it is used in Matthew 16:28, we can look at the context, and see that it fits with the Olivet Discourse.

Lets look at them:

Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mark 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Luke 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

This doesn't mention the kingdom, or a "preview" of the kingdom. As I said, I'm not interested in your own speculations about what the verses involve. I am only interested in what the Bible clearly says itself. I am asking for verses which clearly say that the kingdom came etc.

Of course you can find "Verily I say unto you" used all through the NT. But in the case of Matthew 16:28, and the Olivet Discourse, the timing is stated emphatically, and an equivalent kind of prediction is given about the time of the event. That is a significant correspondence between them.

How is it an oxymoron?

Again, I'm not interested in your own speculation. I am after a verse which uses the words "kingdom of God", "we witnessed the kingdom of God come", something like that.

When I did the comparison with the Olivet Discourse, I produced a verse which clearly mentions the kingdom of God. I'm asking you if you can do the same.

No clear mention of "coming with power" in any of this. The last verse you mentioned:

Matthew 17

[5] While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
[6] And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

The disciples were scared by a talking cloud. It doesn't mention "power" in the text.

From the plain meaning, I would say that it's intended as a divine endorsement of Jesus. I would also suspect that putting him with Moses is a way of trying to give him legitimacy.