DCHindley

So far, no one has really attacked the question above.

I sent you the comparison file, which I hope you have not dismissed after saying to yourself "I could have done this myself." However, this kind of comparison is something very few of us actually do unless we have a bug up our butt to make some sort of peculiar case. I had no case to make, as I am not sure what it actually tells me. So I'll refer to it here, and if anyone wants a copy I'll be glad to sent it to them ...

Could those common passages actually be the framework of a now-lost letter, or perhaps an outline, which the preent day Col & Eph represent expanded versions? The subject matter into which these parallel materials are framed differ consideably between the two letters, making it hard to believe tha one is derived from the other.

The question to ask, then, is whether Paul wrote an outline which was used as a skeleton for two (known) letters, fleshed out, say, by his secretaries, or are these two letters fabricated by others after Paul's time, using some no longer extant letter as a framework, for whatever reason they might have had?

If the former, when comparing the parallel materials, I would want to know more about why in Col 3:18 wives should "be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in (the) LORD" (note the anarthrous KURIOS, which I think is a circumlocution for the divine name), when in Eph 5:22 wives should "be subject to your husbands, as to *the* Lord," (note the presence of the definite article, making the referent "the Lord" = Christ, and leads into a long digression about "head-ship" present only in Eph). The anarthrous KURIOS is otherwise present in both parallels (Eph 6:1 = Col 3:20, Eph 6:8 = Col 3:24, and Eph 6:21 = Col 4:7), and clearly refers to god himself through the circumlocution of an anarthrous KURIOS.

In fact, the anarthrous KURIOS is directly equated with God in Eph 6:6b "doing the will of God" = Eph 3:22c "fearing (the) LORD." In the very next verse of both parallels, when KUROIS takes the definite article, it refers to an earthly master (Eph 6:7 "rendering service with a good will as to the lord and not to men" = Col 3:23 "Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the lord and not men").

If the latter scenario was correct, then the secret may lie in the subjects that were dealt with in the non-parralel materials, as these would presumably have been written to present doctrines favored by the pseudepigraphic author(s). Yet, assuming you are right that Eph really belongs with the second grouping of epistles, how to BOTH end up in a common collection when doing so clearly must have raised in the hearer's minds a question about their literary dependence?

If their origin were as suggested in option 1 above, the presence of Eph in group 1 and the presence of Col in group 2 is not as hard to imagine, simply being sister letters ending up in two separate collections.

DCH

Solo

Andrew,
the problem here is not, I don't think, with Paul being allowed to write in prison. aa's view I think lacks substance. The issue here is the probability of Paul's actually believing he could inform the "whole praetorian guard" of JC. That strikes me as reeking of the later church naivete which Haenchen so masterfully dissected for the Acts. Do you know of any passage in the genuine Paulines where Paul would be alluding to his proselythizing outside of his usual Gentile targets of sebomai mingling with the Jewish communities ? Maybe I missed it.

Jiri

Ben C Smith

Are you referring to the table in your above post? Or to a separate file? If the latter, I have not received anything, either by PM or at my email address.

Ben.

DCHindley

Ben,

Refers to the file I offered in message #6 of this thread, and sent to your web page e-mail address ('ben-at-textexcavation-dot-com') back on 10/16/07, file name EPH-COL.rtf (about 52kb).

Check your spam filter. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll re-send.

DCH

Ben C Smith

Please do. I am not using a spam filter right now, but I may have inadvertently deleted your email.

Thanks.

Ben.

andrewcriddle

The passage about 'the whole Praetorian Guard' is in Philippians 1:13 without AFAIK any strong parallel in Colossians or Ephesians. There is a possibly related reference to 'Caesar's household' in Philippians 4:22.

Philippians is very widely regarded as genuinely Pauline.

As to plausibility, I get the impression from Paul's letters that he would talk about Jesus Christ to anyone who couldn't get away. Assuming that, like other unpopular chores, guarding Paul was rotated among the guards and that Paul has been in prison a substantial time; then a large number of guards would have had to listen to Paul going on about his unusual religious beliefs.

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley

Ben,

I've re-sent. Hopefully you'll get it this time.

DCH

Ben C Smith

Got it. Thanks.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

I have posted your list on my site. It is linked to from my page on the Pauline epistles (scroll down to useful links), and its web address is http://www.textexcavation.com/docume...leyephcol.html.

Thanks a lot. (If you see any errors or such, or if you just cannot stand a red page heading, by all means let me know.)

Ben.

DCHindley

Hey,

The praetoreans were getting time & 1/2 rate to listen anyhow.

DCH