Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gurugeorge · 11-08-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

This is what I can't understand, why are people so attached to the idea that they need to explain how everything mentioned in the Bible "really happened", instead of realizing that these are simply fictional story elements in the first place?

If what Jesus is described as doing in the gospels is indeed part of what was then known as a common suite of tricks, there is relevance in that beyond an attempt at historization of the stories.

Let is e.g. ask the question: "How was Mark trying to portray Jesus?" As a god-man, as a prophet, as a trickster? If people would recognize the "miracles" as for example appear in Mark 1--after the baptizing and desert scenes, in other words close to the beginning of the book--as well known tricks, they might from that form the idea that Mark was portraying Jesus as a trickster. What is more, if Mark is using well known tricks as Jesus' miracles, it is reasonable to think that Mark himself was portraying Jesus as a trickster rather than e.g. a god-man. Mark's gospel then turns into a tale of a failed trickster rather than a tragically executed hero.

Gerard Stafleu

That's a good point Gerard, and actually it would tend to support Malachi151's own analysis of Mark that he's recently done, in one way. The "disciples" are already portrayed as dimwits; if "Jesus" himself is like unto a contemporary charlatan, then Mark looks like a very grumpy tale indeed.

Chili · 11-08-2007, 12:16 PM

Prior to ascension a mountin top experience (spiritual high) is needed to walk on water (go by intuition) for which Galilea is the right place to practice this and thus not Judaism or Catholicism proper . . . where believers pray for the suffering souls in purgatory that they will find their way to heaven. Indulgences were used to 'up the anti' to get into purgatory so that not only fewer but also more worthy (not richer) people would enter the race, which proved itself by yielding the high-mark of Catholicism and our civilization at large.

gurugeorge · 11-08-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Prior to ascension a mountin top experience (spiritual high) is needed to walk on water (go by intuition) for which Galilea is the right place to practice this and thus not Judaism or Catholicism proper . . . where believers pray for the suffering souls in purgatory that they will find their way to heaven. Indulgences were used to 'up the anti' to get into purgatory so that not only fewer but also more worthy (not richer) people would enter the race, which proved itself by yielding the high-mark of Catholicism and our civilization at large.

Ah dear old Chilli :grin:

But you know, the thing I see that I think probably not many other rationalists will see, and the value I find in your comments, is that as a religious person, your way of using religious texts (of interpreting your own spiritual experience through the texts, and the texts through your own spiritual experience) actually gives the board a microcosm or a living snapshot of the sorts of ophidian processes that the very texts we are discussing must have gone through, again and again. Passed from one interpreter with one vision to another with another vision, etc., etc., down through the centuries.

Hence (no doubt) the confusion.

GakuseiDon · 11-08-2007, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire discusses a lot of tricks, but does not mention walking on water. There is an entire wiki entry on

Walking_on_water, which claims that Horus walked on water (no referece) and that ancient Greek mythological figures, Buddhists and Hindus (also no reference) were reputed to walk on water.

On Buddhism: I remember tracking such references down to Buddhist texts, though no longer have the references handy:
1. A person was so keen to meet the Buddha that he walked across a deep river in order to meet him. IIRC the point was about what faith can do.
2. In another story, Buddha said that miracles -- including walking on water (again, I think I am remembering this correctly) -- are cheap tricks, and true masters wouldn't need to do this in order to teach the truth.

Whether these predate the Gospels or not, I don't remember I'm afraid.

Chili · 11-08-2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

Ah dear old Chilli :grin:

But you know, the thing I see that I think probably not many other rationalists will see, and the value I find in your comments, is that as a religious person, your way of using religious texts (of interpreting your own spiritual experience through the texts, and the texts through your own spiritual experience) actually gives the board a microcosm or a living snapshot of the sorts of ophidian processes that the very texts we are discussing must have gone through, again and again. Passed from one interpreter with one vision to another with another vision, etc., etc., down through the centuries.

Hence (no doubt) the confusion.

No gurugeorge, that can't be true or it would not be the intricate weave I see. The greatest story ever told is only great because we identify with it and I admire those ancients for putting it together the way they did. I do not improve the text but at best I apply it (you are close on that) .

It may be true that I would be called a heretic by many a priests but that is only because he still is a priest with a life of his own to deal with (I don't envy or begrudge priests and if anything I will defend them).

You are probably right to say that most of it was borrowed from other mythologies that went before them but I think that the basic story was there when they first wrote it (and I really do not know if the Gospels have changed of the years).

It is also true that Catholicism is a living faith wherein the historic Jesus just gave us the example to identify with when we get there, but in the mean time we are allowed to sing our own song. BTW, I am not a religious person and sometimes wish that I was a better person.

Chili · 11-08-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

On Buddhism: I remember tracking such references down to Buddhist texts, though no longer have the references handy:
1. A person was so keen to meet the Buddha that he walked across a deep river in order to meet him. IIRC the point was about what faith can do.
2. In another story, Buddha said that miracles -- including walking on water (again, I think I am remembering this correctly) -- are cheap tricks, and true masters wouldn't need to do this in order to teach the truth.

Whether these predate the Gospels or not, I don't remember I'm afraid.

Water only exist prior to ascension because in the New heaven and New Earth the sea is no longer. So therefore neither a Buddha or a Christ[ian] needs to walk on water since when all is know all is solid and golden.

Cheerful Charlie · 11-08-2007, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

I know that a lot of experts in ancient texts inhabit this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholas Humphrey

Lucian, a Roman born in Syria, writing in the 2nd century AD, catalogued the range of phenomena that the 'charlatans' and 'tricksters' could lay on. They included wlking on water, materialisation and dematerialisation, clairvoyance, expulsion of demons and prophesy. And he went on to explain how many of these feats were acheived by normal means. Hippolytus, too, exposed several 'pseudo miracle workers' who had powers uncannily similar to those of Jesus, including a certain Marcus who had mastered the art of turning the water in a cup red by mixing liquid from another cup while the onlookers' attention was distracted.

He continues

Quote:

so close were the similarities between Jesus' works and those of common, lower-class magicians that several Jewish and pagan commentators of the time simply took it for granted there was little except style and zeal to distinguish Jesus from the others...

I'd be very interested to see what our resident experts on ancient literature make of these quotes.

David B

Read Lucian's "Alexander of Abonuchia", AKA "Alexander the Miracle Mongerer". Its a hoot and its around on the net. You may also wish to peruse Cicero's "On Diviniation".

The NT warns us that there will be anti-christs who will work miracles and will fool even the elect of God. Itinerant Jewish exorcists were a dime a dozen at the time of Jesus.

Tacitus tells us the Emperor Vespasian cured two blind men with his spittle. and there is the biography of Apollonius of Tyana, a miracle worker who live at the time of Jesus. Many of these were denounced as tricks by later Christian writers, frauds, or Satanic deceptions.

CC

Toto · 11-08-2007, 04:37 PM

Alexander the Oracle-Monger

Quote:

And from this point, as Thucydides might say, the war takes its beginning. These ambitious scoundrels were quite devoid of scruples, and they had now joined forces; it could not escape their penetration that human life is under the absolute dominion of two mighty principles, fear and hope, and that any one who can make these serve his ends may be sure of rapid fortune. . . .

On Diviniation - translation wiki

David B · 11-08-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

I know that a lot of experts in ancient texts inhabit this forum.

He continues

I'd be very interested to see what our resident experts on ancient literature make of these quotes.

David B

Read Lucian's "Alexander of Abonuchia", AKA "Alexander the Miracle Mongerer". Its a hoot and its around on the net. You may also wish to peruse Cicero's "On Diviniation".

The NT warns us that there will be anti-christs who will work miracles and will fool even the elect of God. Itinerant Jewish exorcists were a dime a dozen at the time of Jesus.

Tacitus tells us the Emperor Vespasian cured two blind men with his spittle. and there is the biography of Apollonius of Tyana, a miracle worker who live at the time of Jesus. Many of these were denounced as tricks by later Christian writers, frauds, or Satanic deceptions.

CC

Links would have been good.

David B

David B · 11-08-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Alexander the Oracle-Monger

Quote:

And from this point, as Thucydides might say, the war takes its beginning. These ambitious scoundrels were quite devoid of scruples, and they had now joined forces; it could not escape their penetration that human life is under the absolute dominion of two mighty principles, fear and hope, and that any one who can make these serve his ends may be sure of rapid fortune. . . .

On Diviniation - translation wiki

Thanks - not read yet, but will check out tomorrow.

Time zones and stuff.

David B

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11-08-2007, 12:16 PM	#22
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Prior to ascension a mountin top experience (spiritual high) is needed to walk on water (go by intuition) for which Galilea is the right place to practice this and thus not Judaism or Catholicism proper . . . where believers pray for the suffering souls in purgatory that they will find their way to heaven. Indulgences were used to 'up the anti' to get into purgatory so that not only fewer but also more worthy (not richer) people would enter the race, which proved itself by yielding the high-mark of Catholicism and our civilization at large.

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