spin

Yep, you're correct. I overlooked that one, which actually showed that IamJoseph was working from his English translation. I'm sure that I overlooked various others as well, maybe not so apt for the description of "gem".


spin

xaxxat

Don't anyone tell him about Ugarit...

IamJoseph

Its I am. The ano [I] or 'ANI in Hebrew; the Chi [AM/IS].


Ok, how about 'I'M'. Happy?

spamandham

Me too! That's the problem with trying to prove a negative. Hence, the burden of proof lies upon positive claims. Please explain how it would even be theoretically possibly to disprove that Jesus walked on water.

Is there *any* reasonable evidence you would accept to disprove that? Why do you start by assuming it's true?

Declares how? Via the book you worship and pretend to be the work of a god?

Circular my friend. Book makes claims about a god. Book makes claims about itself. Therefor book's claims about god are true?

Woe to all idiots who do not bow down before the ridiculous ancient tribal god of some po-dunk desert civilization who's priests wrote a stupid book to record their legal system!!! Oh woe!!!

Dude. I don't believe. I am immune to your absurd implied threats.

I can only assume this gibberish is the equivalent of a secret handshake in your cult.

PhilosopherJay

Hi IamJoseph,

Let us assume that the Tel Dan inscription contains a reference to King David.

After two centuries of thousands of archaeologists digging up millions of artifacts, what do we know about David more than a reader of the Bible knew two hundred years ago?

We only know perhaps that some 150-200 years after the Bible suggests David ruled over Israel, a non-Hebrew King chiseled a black basalt stele in which he proclaimed that he had won a military victory and killed a son of an Israelite king descended from the house of David.

The thousands of digs have not turned up the grave of David or any of the actual houses that he lived in, or buildings dedicated to him, or any poems that he wrote or anybody wrote about him, or the clothes that he wore or any objects that he owned.

When we ask what is left of this great King who walked upon the Earth and was beloved by God and slew Goliath, according to the Bible; all that we find is three letters chiselled into a basalt stele (a process taking probably less than ten seconds) which was written 150-200 years after the time he was supposed to have lived. However, it was not even written by a Hebrew or in Hebrew. It was written or ordered written by an enemy of the Hebrews in boasting of his victory over the Hebrews.

Let us say that the chisel had slipped and instead of DVD, the writer had written BVD, then no evidence would exist and we would have to consider him a myth. Or let us say the king had simply not decided to mention the house of the man he killed, but decided that it was enough to give name and family. Again, except for this happy accident, it would be easy to place David into the category of myth.

So all that is left of King David is three letters made by about eight taps of a hammer against a chisel done by a man who was not Hebrew circa 800 B.C.E..

Where are the statues and monuments and drawings that we have by the thousands for other kings of that time? Where are the papyrus fragments singing his praises and recording his deeds? Sure we have the dead sea scrolls which mention him, but they are some 800-1000 years later. They are almost as far removed from him as we are from King Arthur, the mythological first King of Britain. Why did not the Hebrews preserve any archaeological objects of King David?

Two hundreds years of thousands of archaelogical digs and we have found not one item made by a Hebrew which indicates a knowledge of the existence of this Hebrew king. Not from 1000 B.C.E., not from 900 B.C.E., not from 800 B.C.E., not from 700 B.C.E., not from 600 B.C.E., not from 500 B.C.E...

What is the difference if we consider the tales of him as a pure myth or if we take these traces of eight hammer taps as proof that somebody 150-200 years after the time that the tales of him are set knew some "House" by that name? Do these eight hammer taps warrant that anything we read about David in our Bibles is true and did happen?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

IamJoseph

The issue with this find concerns whether david was a myth [as per many scholars' baseless conclusions on evdence even pre-dating this find] or a historical figure. Your assumptions are not credible, nor your alligning it with Goliat and a grave relating to a 3000 year figure, in a land which was in constant invasions and destructions. Please show us instead an equivalent affirmation of any other fgure from such an ancient period - you may use any part of the world you like.

The limiting this find to three letters is also not credible; in fact the find shows inter-connective details with historical events, and this would not even require those figures or the reference to David. However, we have also other evidences which allign with David and Solomon in hard copy coins and other artifacts. David is also evidenced by a long thread of writings, none of which have ever been disputed as dis-historical.

Cyclical inclinations imposed on history lead nowhere. My view is there is far more proof for 3000 year David than more recent figures like Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed; and equally, there is far more evidence David wrote the psalms than those figures can be connected to what is ascribed to them as their own writings. There is more evidence of the trial conducted on David by the Prophet Nathan, than the trial mentioned in the Gospels concerning Jesus; there is more evidence that the Prophet Samuel annointed David as King than the followers of Mohammed appointing him a Prophet; there is more evidence of the entire real life family members of David, as well as his biological lineage, than we have for Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed.

The truth is we are within a realm which says David and Moses were Muslim [intelligently embellished as 'belief', but which transcends all historicity]; and there are two gaping discrepencies in the Gospel claims of Jesus lineage with this same figure. IOW, European Christianity and Islam have a jewish problem - and this filters down to their scholars and a host of media and enclyclopedia - these are being exposed continuously. We saw the debacle with the scrolls - had it not been retrieved into Israeli hands, we'd probably not have any access to these writings today - or they would have been destroyed and paste and copy editions only made available; this is also what has occured with the Flavius Josephus writings. And there are vital reasons to keep it that way.

I invite your preamble at the top if you are saying David was a myth or not first - then second this why this find is not conclusive in that regard.

IamJoseph

While none can PROVE the Creator, there is only one document that says so [Hebrew bible]; many say otherwise, namely they can prove and they know, they saw, they touched, they witnessed, they heard; or alternatively they affirm that no creator exists; only the former Hebrew edition appears right imperically. Here, it is not a violation of anyone's sensebilities, nor their science or math, to the premise the creator is indescribable, indefinable and inequatable with any thing within creation. The Hebrew paradisgms appear to me proven, manifest, blatant and in allignment with reality. Your added and subtracted embellishments are a distortion.

Roland

It seems like the Bible just can't catch a break. Even when there is some external evidence for something regarding the existence of Israel (the Merneptah stele), it turns out to be an event that's not even mentioned in the Bible. As Finklestein and others have pointed out, very little of what the Bible records as happening prior to the 9th Century B.C. would appear to have any historical validity.

spamandham

You've got to be kidding. There must be millions of documents that claim various forms of creators. Many of your own posts are examples of such documents.

I haven't added or subtracted anything from your fairy tale book. I'm querying *you* and your claims.

IamJoseph

Nothing inadequate with 9C BCE, which is a mere 300 years from the text given datings of the Hebrew bible's recording: let Finklestein show us some older historical writings to legitimise his premise - if these don't exist, why does he demand this from one source only. If we have numerous prophetic books between 9 and 7C BCE, with mathematical dates and numbers listing past events, and paleo attested names of kings and wars, all backed by hard relics - it becomes an implausable stretch to conclude how he does.

I also cannot accept that the Egyptian stelle has to exactly allign with specific verse in the Hebrew bible: it does fit in a generic sense with the narratives. The primal conclusion of that steller is not that it does not allign with a lift-off verse, but that Israel existed in that space-time, incurred wars with Egypt, and did in fact reign in a land called canaan till 70 CE [with one 70 year break]. In fact, if it did allign exactly with a verse - it would be suspicious and un-natural, as if contrived and doctored.

Finkelstine is on record as stating that the advent of speech, as pointed out to be less than 6000 years old in Genesis - constitutes the greatest difficulty facing ToE than any other factor. It potentially negates ToE's version of both adaptation and survival of the fittest, inclining more with Genesis' seed factor and limited speciation premises [limited to within a special group].