jakejonesiv

Earl Doherty is well aware of the "MP" position. He chooses not to embrace it. In the Jesus Mysteries list nearly two years ago, there was a fascinating discussion between Earl Doherty and Hermann Detering on these issues.

H. Detering is merely the latest in the long line of "Dutch Radical" criticism starting with Bruno Bauer. A brief history is given at The Dutch Radical Approach to the Pauline Epistles . The defining issue is Paul as a second century fabrication. Perhaps someday the works of G.A. Van den Bergh van Eysinga will become readily available in English.

Typically, the reaction of mainline scholarship is to run away from the issue. The reaction seems to be "if we give up the historical Paul, what we think we know about Christian origins disappears! It is much better to accept Paul at face value, to believe that what we read in our Bibles today reflects accurately what flowed from the pen of a first century preacher. This is an entirely understandable reaction. But then one reads the supposedly authentic biographical words of Paul, when suddenly the hand of the weaver of tales* is revealed, and the frame of reference shifts jarringly. What is real and what is illusion?

Jake Jones IV


P.S. Some D.R. have historically held to the possibility of a Historical Jesus, although that position is nowadays considered naive. The connection of Paul to Simon Magus is extremely interesting, but cannot be considered proven.

]* Paul is said to go to Damascus merely because Elijah is sent to Damascus after his Theophany on the Holy Mountain.

spin

The Bosra near Damascus is not the Nabataean Bosra. It was in the territory of Philip as I understand the geography, as it was part of the Trachonitis. Look at this map, which is better than that I referred to earlier to understand the extend of Trachonitis and Auranitis where Bostra is.

All one can show is some similarity of culture, which is only to be expected as the area of Philip was mostly Arab in population. This will include same or similar gods.

(I've just had the occasion to look over AJ 16.9.1, which talks both of the Trachonites and Sylleus the Nabataean functionary. The territory came into the hands of Herod when Caesar (Augustus, I guess) gave it to him to "domesticate" the area, as there were Arab brigands. Sylleus gives some of them hospitality. I don't know how it reflects on the Bostra question though.)

As I've already said, the first city of the Nabataeans isn't going to be in other people's home territory. Herod was given control of the Trachonitis. Philip held it along with Auranitis (see AJ 17.11.4 for the extent) until around 35 CE, when it was absorbed into Syria, then given to Agrippa. How could this city be Nabataean durign any of that time??

You might find Strabo 16.2.16 (&20) some help.

The location of Bosra/Bostra is fairly simple because a town exists there today, you can find it on a decent map of Syria. It's in the middle of the area of Trachonitis. And it's about time you looked at a map of the area. You'll see it on the map I link above.

One thing is interesting: neither Strabo nor Pliny the Elder nor Josephus mention Bosra/Bostra, so it certainly wasn't of any importance in the 1st c. CE.

There is no reason for you to think that Aretas held Bosra ash-Sham, especially as it seems to have been in Herodian hands for at least 40 years.

Can you think of a reason why Caligula would give Damascus to Aretas IV after Aretas's ruckus against a Roman client?


spin

Clivedurdle

Didn't someone comment here that Damascus might be code for Megiddo?

Toto

There is an essay by Sid Green on christianorigins.com Qumran and Early Christianity

On the same site Paul and Damascus

andrewcriddle

I don't have access at the moment to some of the relevant literature so I can't present primary evidence that Bostra-near-Syria was an important Nabataean city.

Do you know of any expert at all in the field who agrees with you in holding that it wasn't ?

Thanks for the map. The problem is that some maps seem to extend the tetrarachy of Philip further East than others and I'm not sure what the evidence is. The map you linked to certainly extends the tetrarchy further South than others do. Most maps seem to have Bostra at the Southern boundary of Auranitis not well within it. (Most maps of the area as we have both found don't show both Bostra and Auranitis/Trachonitis but there is no dispute about the location of Bostra-near-Damascus and most maps of Philip's tetrarchy have its Southern boundary somewhat North of 32 degrees 30 minutes)

IMHO the route from Bostra to Damascus would have passed through the eastern edge of Philip's tetrarchy. However in practice communication between Bostra and Damascus would have probably depended more on relations with the independent Decapolis city of Kanatha/Canatha (which seems to have been right on that route) than relations with the ruler of Auranitis and Trachonitis.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

I've managed to read the relevant bits of Bowersock's Roman Arabia what follows is partly from that and partly from things found on the internet including use of http://books.google.co.uk I think and hope it is accurate but I am not an expert here.

In at least one case a Nabataean inscription mentioning Bostra is unambiguous. It is an early 2nd century CE inscription referring to Bostra as the location of the Roman provincial government which certainly means Bostra near Damascus. There are no unambiguous Nabataean references to Bostra in Edom.

There are other Nabataean references to Bostra which are not as obviously clear cut. One of the most interesting being a late 1st century CE insciption on an altar at Imtan east of Bostra, which was offered "to Dushara A'ra, the god of our master, who is in Bostra, in the year 23 of Rabbel." If we take with most scholars our master to refer to the king and not the God then this implies that Bostra was at this time the Nabataean royal residence. The question is which Bostra is meant ?

Several of the inscriptions refer to Bostra as a centre of Dusares (Dushara) worship. (Dusares being one of the major Nabataean Gods) We know from coins and inscriptions that Bostra near Damascus was a centre of Dusares worship. However, although Bostra in Edom had at least limited Nabataean occupation at this time there is IIUC no direct evidence that it was a centre of Dusares worship (other sites at this time in Edom have provided evidence of being centres of Nabataean-type worship but IIUC not Bostra.)

According to the excavations of the late Crystal Bennett the main period of occupation of Bostra in Edom is pre-Hellenistic with apparently more limited occupation in the Nabataean period. (There appear no equivalent in Bostra in Edom of the Nabataean monumental architecture found at Bostra near Damascus.)

According to the inscriptions Dusares was worshipped at Bostra as Dushara A'ra which some scholars claim to be a name of Dusares found in the Northern region of Nabataean influence rather than down South. (I'm dubious myself about this particular argument)

Putting this evidence together; referring the Nabataean inscriptions about Bostra to Bostra in Edom means arguing that although Bostra at least sometimes means Bostra near Damascus and although Bostra near Damascus was a centre of Dusares worship, an inscription about Dusares worship at Bostra, from a place much closer Bostra near Damascus than Bostra in Edom refers to Bostra in Edom. This is at the very least unlikely.

Andrew Criddle

spin

No, I was just trying to make sense of Bosrah as an early Nabataean city. A northern Bosra doesn't make sense for a group whose origins were Edomite (geographically speaking).

The major indication is Strabo 16.2.16, which tells us that Trachonitis reaches the mountains (which reach up to Mt Hauran). Also Auranitis includes Mt Hauran, which is well to the east-north-east of Bostra.

I don't think there can be any doubt whatsoever as to the eastern extent of Agrippa's territory. Mt Hauran is part of Auranitis. It is the minimum eastward extent of the holding.

Through the mountains??

Communications between Bostra and Damascus would certainly have been west to the King's Highway and follow it up to Damascus. I really don't see what you have to gain from this sort of wayward guesswork, Andrew.

Going east around Agrippa's territory puts the traveler east of the mountains and in the desert. Through the east of Agrippa's territory, an incredible trajectory for two reasons, 1) the mountains, and 2) one sovereign didn't give right to cross to another king of equal stature, especially when that king had just made war against a relative.


spin

the_cave

The last time I wrote about this, did we decide that it would have been unprecendented for Aretas to occupy even a single city of the Decapolis, even aside from Damascus? (I think the claim was, the fight about Gamala was about Gamala's borders, not Aretas', and that the battle between him & Antipas must have taken place on Nabatean soil.)

Or did we distinguish between Damascus (which either belonged to Syria or didn't) and the rest of the Decapolis (which was mostly Syrian, but at least semi-autonomous)?

andrewcriddle

I've been checking this in Bowersock's Roman Arabia (or via: amazon.co.uk)

He reconstructs the mid 1st century CE Nabataean routes on the basis of sources such as the Peutinger map.

According to him the road running North-East from Philadelphia/'Amman in the Southern Transjordan bifurcates after 25 miles at Hatita (possibly Khirbet Samra)

One road goes to Bostra via Thantia (possibly Umm al-jimal). This road then turns due West to Adraha/Der'a then Capitolias then Gadara then crossing the Jordan to Tiberias then to Scythopolis then Jerusalem and the Mediterranean.

The other road passes to the East of Bostra to Canatha/Qanawat presumably via Suweida' then on to Aenos (identification uncertain) then on to Damascus.

To quote Bowersock goes on to argue that to reach Damscus from Bostra one would have gone nearly 10 miles East on the road to Shalkad then turned North at the intersection with the road to Suweida'. (Probably at an obscure place called Rhose).

If Bowersock is right the the route from Bostra to Damascus at the relevant time would have been at the very Eastern edges of Auranitis and Trachonitis.

Andrew Criddle