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Old 04-26-2006, 10:15 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Patriot7
I do and I think there are some good reasons for that conclusion. I think it's more reasonable to consider that it is a supernatural book then not.
Could you name some of those reasons?
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And I understand your worldview prohibits you from thinking in that category, so I would only be wasting my time to make that case for you wouldn't I?
This sounds like evasion to me.
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Christianity makes some basic claims about reality. Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason, presents them very clearly:
Your quoted material shows Koukl drawing some distinctions between Christian dogma and other religious paradigms but he doesn't demonstrate any way in which Christian dogma correlates to observed reality. In fact, it's quite at odds with observable reality. By contrast, empiricism correponds perfectly with it.
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Old 04-26-2006, 10:38 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Julian
Can I ask which particular bible you consider to be the revealed word of god? Is it Textus Receptus? UBS4/NA27? Majority? Byzantine? Westcott-Hort? Stephanus? Scrivener? The complutensian Polyglot? Any particular translation? Which one did god choose?

Julian
emphasis mine.

As far as I know, I haven't read anything that suggests God choose any of them specifically. Have you? I would assume God choose to reveal his word through the autographs. And you're a moderator?

Do you have a specific gripe with the traditional canon?
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Old 04-26-2006, 10:41 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Julian
You said 'gospels.' It is fair to assume that 'gospels' would include Luke. It seems like a desperate dodge on your part.

Julian
I said the gospels are not always in chronological order. Or something to that effect. I didn't say all of the gospels are randomly put together with no chronology intact. Now if Matthew reports an appearance apparantly after the women visit the tomb and before reaching the disciples and Matthew is not always in chronological order this could be a case in point of that. Luke could be in perfect chronology and Matthew not so perfect and that would explain the omision. However I don't think that is necessary because omission of detail is not an error.
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Old 04-26-2006, 10:48 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by buckshot23
I said the gospels are not always in chronological order. Or something to that effect. I didn't say all of the gospels are randomly put together with no chronology intact. Now if Matthew reports an appearance apparantly after the women visit the tomb and before reaching the disciples and Matthew is not always in chronological order this could be a case in point of that. Luke could be in perfect chronology and Matthew not so perfect and that would explain the omision. However I don't think that is necessary because omission of detail is not an error.
Why don't you put all 3 together into a timeline so we can see how it all fits without contradiction or omission?
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Old 04-26-2006, 10:48 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Kosh
OK, let's nail your feet down then.

As a recap, you were responding to Pharoah's first page post where he said



Hint: he is discussing Luke here. And therefore, so were you when you replied directly to his statement:



So, it sure looks like you tried to weasel out of it by saying that Luke wasn't chronological, despite what the opening text of Luke explicitly states (as shown in my ealier post).

"You put your hand on your hips...."
I was referring to Matthew really. Think about it. There is an event in Matthew at a time where Luke does not record this event. If the women saw Jesus at another time. Then Matthew would be out of order and Luke in order. However I agree that this isn't as valid an explanation as could be made and that is why I didn't really push it. Remember though that Matthew has the event in question while Luke does not. Saying Luke is out of order wouldn't be any kind of explanation whatsoever.
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Old 04-26-2006, 10:52 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Patriot7
emphasis mine.

As far as I know, I haven't read anything that suggests God choose any of them specifically. Have you? I would assume God choose to reveal his word through the autographs. And you're a moderator?

Do you have a specific gripe with the traditional canon?
Did you think I would not notice that you didn't answer the question? Which one do you consider the revealed word of god?

Julian
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Old 04-26-2006, 10:55 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by buckshot23
I was referring to Matthew really.
Then you should be more carefull in your wording.
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Old 04-26-2006, 10:56 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Julian
Did you think I would not notice that you didn't answer the question? Which one do you consider the revealed word of god?

Julian
I think he did answer it. The autographs. So none of the above.
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Old 04-26-2006, 11:08 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Your quoted material shows Koukl drawing some distinctions between Christian dogma and other religious paradigms but he doesn't demonstrate any way in which Christian dogma correlates to observed reality. In fact, it's quite at odds with observable reality. By contrast, empiricism correponds perfectly with it.
emphasis mine.

Now you're just contradicting yourself. How can empiricism correspond to reality if empiricism is the method by which we investigate realiy? You're arguing empiricism as a worldview now because it's convenient and it bails you out. But for the past 4 pages, you've been consistently saying exactly the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic, post 227
Empirical method is not a "worldview."
Really. Are you sure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic, post 227
Empiricism is a methodology, not a philosophy or a worldview
Yep you sound pretty sure.

By definition the NT is empirical evidence of the resurrection. I'm enjoying the discussion and your objections to the quality of that empirical evidence. But the readers of your posts will be able to understand you much better if you stop arguing with yourself over what empiricism is. Please let us know when you've settled the debate.
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Old 04-26-2006, 11:11 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by buckshot23
I was referring to Matthew really. Think about it. There is an event in Matthew at a time where Luke does not record this event. If the women saw Jesus at another time. Then Matthew would be out of order and Luke in order. However I agree that this isn't as valid an explanation as could be made and that is why I didn't really push it. Remember though that Matthew has the event in question while Luke does not. Saying Luke is out of order wouldn't be any kind of explanation whatsoever.
This explanation still strains credulity to the breaking point. Would the women really tell the disciples they had seen an empty tomb and no body but omit to tell them they had seen a living Jesus?
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