FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-25-2009, 12:32 PM   #131
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Then there's the totally unimpressive Craig Evans:

[snip]

Just have a look at his CV:
D. Habil. - Karoli Gaspar Reformatus University, Budapest (2009)
Thesis: Jesus and the Fall of Satan: Studies in Demonology and the Early Christian Movement
Ph.D. - Claremont Graduate University, California (1983)
Thesis: Isaiah 6:9-10 in Early Jewish and Christian Interpretation
Advisor: William H. Brownlee (deceased)
M.A. - Claremont Graduate University, California (1980)
M.Div. - Western Baptist Seminary, Oregon (1977) [Baptist ordination, 1979]
B.A. - Claremont McKenna College, California (1974)
Do you really need to wonder why he's not strong on history?
I should think that to see whether or not Evans is strong (or weak) on history, his list of publications would be more relevant than what you set out above.
So publications are more important than qualifications in your world, Jeffrey?? I think not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
In any case, since you've now set out the criteria by which people may be judged as "strong" or "weak" on history, let's see your CV so that we may know why we should think -- as you strongly imply we should -- that you are Evan's opposite.
Nice try at your usual tricks, Jeffrey. However, you simply haven't understood the issue. To be able to do something, you need to remove the impediments in your way, not place more there.


spin
spin is offline  
Old 11-25-2009, 12:51 PM   #132
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dog-on View Post

I think that the statement I quoted was pretty clear and the reference you provided doesn't really change the point he tries to make in the prior quoted statement.
Yes, you would think that.

Quote:
Of course I disagree with his position, as I do not view the gospels as he does.
Yes, that is patently self evident. But that's not what I asked you to outline. The question I asked you is to explain why it is you think he is wrong to view the Gospels as he does. What are your actual reasons reasons for claiming that his view is is incorrect?

Jeffrey

I disagree with his view because Mark seems to be a story that serves to counter claims of apostolic authority. The later redactions, Matthew, Luke and John, try to obscure the obvious meaning of the original.

I am unaware of any good evidence for oral, or any other specific previous traditions, other than maybe popular stories of the day, the Paulines, the Septuagent and perhaps Josephus, that Mark would have needed to compose his story. I am however, open to any evidence to the contrary that you may be able to provide.

To call Mark a Greco Roman bioi seems no more than wishful thinking based on a circular argument that is based on the presumption that Mark was writing history in the first place. This, unless I can see some real reason to buy the pre-Pauline oral tradition argument, as currently I only see post Pauline redaction.

At least that is where I am at the moment.



So, again, what do you think of his statement? Do you agree? If so, why?
dog-on is offline  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:17 PM   #133
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Robots View Post
Collins is quite critical of Burridge's neglect of Jewish literature:
Burridge's case for defining the Gospels as bioi appears strong in large part because he did not seriously consider any alternative. The very brief review of scholarship under the heading "The Jewish Background" on pages 19-21 does not constitute a serious consideration of the relevant genres of Jewish literature. It is certainly essential to interpret the Gospels in light of Greek and Roman literature. But it is equally essential to interpret them in light of Jewish literature.

--Adela Yarbro Collins / Review of What Are the Gospels? A Comparison with Graeco-Roman Biography by Richard A. Burridge. In The Journal of Religion, Vol. 75, No. 2 (Apr., 1995), pp. 241.
In fact, Collins cautions against assigning the Gospels to the genre of Greco-Roman biography, stating:
It is certainly true that the Gospels eventually came to be read as lives of Jesus, but such readings should be seen as an understandable, but significant departure from the authors' primary intentions.

--p.245.

How this last quote functions to buttress the claim you are making is beyond me. Moreover, you've (conveniently?) left out what she says on p. 246, namely that
Quote:
Burridge has made an important contribution in verifying the intuitive definition of the Gospels as "lives of Jesus.
In any case, your claim about what Collins is supposedly cautioning us against seems belied (and at the same time shows that you are not as familiar with what Collins thinks and has to say on the subject of the genre of Mark as you'd have us believe) in what she writes in the intro to her Hermeneia Commentary on Mark:
Quote:
The sixth type is the historical biography. Lives of this type have the same aims as historiography: to give an account of an important series of events and to explain the events in terms of their causes. Plutarch’s life of Caesar is an example of this type. He pays little attention to Caesar’s private life and character, in order to focus on posing and answering the questions how and why Caesar came to be a tyrant.121 Another example is Tacitus’s account of the life of his father-in-law, Agricola, written around 98 ce. In this work Tacitus was critical of the ostentatious deaths of the Stoic opponents of the principate and endeavored to show that a good man was able to contribute to the welfare of the state, even during the rule of a despot.122 Suetonius’s Lives of the Caesars also belongs in this category. His method of collecting, ordering, and presenting material is that of the learned grammarian and antiquarian. In his Lives of the Caesars, however, he moved beyond the scholarly type into the historical type, because his aim was to communicate in an orderly way all the information about a person that is worth knowing and of significance for the field in which that person had distinguished himself. Since the emperors’ field of activity was Roman history, he founded a new type of historiography: the narration of the history of a period by focusing on the lives of a series of supreme political rulers in that period.123

The historical type of biography is the one that is most similar to the Gospels. Mark, for example, apparently intended to narrate the history of the fulfillment of the divine promises; in other words, to describe in mimetic fashion the sequence of events in which the gospel of God was proclaimed and had an effect on human beings as actors in a historical process. He chose to narrate this sequence of events by telling the story of Jesus’ life, because he was the primary agent of God in the unfolding of this history. Further, the focus on a single life, from the beginning of the public life of the protagonist to his death and vindication, provides a pleasing artistic and dramatic unity.124

The Gospel of Mark, then, has an important affinity with what I am calling the didactic type of ancient biography. It is also analogous to the historical type of ancient biography, in that the life of Jesus is told, not for its own sake, not to illustrate his character or cultural achievement, but because his life was at the center of a crucial period of history from the point of view of Christian proclamation. The historical type of biography is very close to the historical monograph, which focuses on a single person. Whether one defines Mark as a historical biography or a historical monograph depends on one’s perception of where the emphasis in Mark lies: on the activity and fate of Jesus or on God’s plan for the fulfillment of history in which he played a decisive role.125

121 Ibid., 136–37. See also Christopher Pelling “Breaking the Bounds: Writing about Julius Caesar,” in McGing and Mossman, eds., Ancient Biography, 255–80, esp. 266–69.

122See the discussion by Dihle, Entstehung, 27–32, 80. For a recent treatment of the political ambiguities and genre of this text, see Tim Whitmarsh, “This In-Between Book: Language, Politics and Genre in the Agricola,” in McGing and Mossman, eds., Ancient Biography, 305–33.

123Ibid., 64–80. See also idem, Studien, 116. See below the discussion of histories that focus on an individual leader.

124Leo pointed out how often the motif of the vengeance of the gods occurs at the end of Plutarch’s lives and the dramatic effect of this motif and its placement (Biographie, 159, 165, 183).

125Wegener concluded that Mark is best viewed as belonging to the genre “Hellenistic biography” from a historical point of view, but as dramatic history in the tragic mode as a more helpful category for modern readers (Cruciformed, 30–31).

Collins, A. Y., & Attridge, H. W. (2007). Mark : A Commentary on the Gospel of Mark. Hermeneia--a critical and historical commentary on the Bible (32). Minneapolis: Fortress Press.
Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:24 PM   #134
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
In any case, since you've now set out the criteria by which people may be judged as "strong" or "weak" on history, let's see your CV so that we may know why we should think -- as you strongly imply we should -- that you are Evan's opposite.
Nice try at your usual tricks, Jeffrey. However, you simply haven't understood the issue. To be able to do something, you need to remove the impediments in your way, not place more there.


spin
So since, as you claim, Evan's CV reveals what impediments are in his way, let's see your CV so that we may know that you are what you claim yourself to be -- one who is not encumbered as you assert Evans is given the degrees he earned and the places he earned them from.

Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:39 PM   #135
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,679
Default

Collins, too, places undo emphasis on Greco-Roman literature in relation to the gospels. Non-Jewish scholars seem to have difficulty dealing with the NT as essentially Jewish literature, a difficulty similar to the one they have in dealing with the Jewishness of Christ. April deConick writes about this difficulty:
To be frank, the Jewish Jesus is completely irrevelant to Christianity today. He does not make sense, because all that he stood for that was Jewish, he no longer stands for in Christianity.--Forbidden Gospels
No Robots is offline  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:58 PM   #136
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Robots View Post
Collins, too, places undo emphasis on Greco-Roman literature in relation to the gospels. Non-Jewish scholars seem to have difficulty dealing with the NT as essentially Jewish literature, a difficulty similar to the one they have in dealing with the Jewishness of Christ. April deConick writes about this difficulty:
To be frank, the Jewish Jesus is completely irrevelant to Christianity today. He does not make sense, because all that he stood for that was Jewish, he no longer stands for in Christianity..--Forbidden Gospels
Collins does not deny that Jesus was Jewish or that what he stood for was "Jewish". But the question is not what ethnicity Jesus was but what genre the Gospels are. And if you think that April would deny what Collins says on this matter, then just as you did in the case of Adella's views, you are showing yourself woefully ignorant of what April has had to say in this regard.

Moreover, your blind devotion to Brunner has blinded you to the fact that Brunner was working from the naive, theologically motivated, and wholly unsupportable positions that Palestinian Judaism in Jesus' day was something that was and always had been hermetically sealed off from Hellenization, and that the Gospels were examples of Kleineliterature, and that therefore anything he says about Gospel origins and their literary nature and character that is grounded in this supposition is rubbish.

Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 11-25-2009, 03:02 PM   #137
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Nice try at your usual tricks, Jeffrey. However, you simply haven't understood the issue. To be able to do something, you need to remove the impediments in your way, not place more there.
So since, as you claim, Evan's CV reveals what impediments are in his way, let's see your CV so that we may know that you are what you claim yourself to be -- one who is not encumbered as you assert Evans is given the degrees he earned and the places he earned them from.
I'm sorry, your attempts at tangents aren't helpful.

One of the tenets of any scholarship is that good methodologies are based around the rule (ie dominion) of evidence. Making career choices that ground you further in belief systems points to a position which is contrary to the rule of evidence. Evans' CV is merely useful here in showing his choices. Do you think that going to the School of the Americas and later doing a PsyOps course at Fort Bragg cannot be used as indications of direction in Manuel Noriega's career choices?


spin
spin is offline  
Old 11-25-2009, 03:11 PM   #138
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,679
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
But the question is not what ethnicity Jesus was but what genre the Gospels are.
Exactly. And what I am saying is that the gospels are essentially a unique genre, a previously non-existent ammé haaretz literature. To call them anything else is to obscure their essential nature.


Quote:
Moreover, your blind devotion to Brunner has blinded you to the fact that Brunner was working from the naive, theologically motivated, and wholly unsupportable positions that Palestinian Judaism in Jesus' day was something that was and always had been hermetically sealed off from Hellenization, and that the Gospels were examples of Kleineliterature, and that therefore anything he says about Gospel origins and their literary nature and character that is grounded in this supposition is rubbish.
So, do you deny that the Gospels are essentially Jewish literature, and that they originated among the ammé haaretz? Do you assert that there is Greek influence evident in Christ's words?
No Robots is offline  
Old 11-25-2009, 04:08 PM   #139
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Robots View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
But the question is not what ethnicity Jesus was but what genre the Gospels are.
Exactly. And what I am saying is that the gospels are essentially a unique genre, a previously non-existent ammé haaretz literature. To call them anything else is to obscure their essential nature.
And what, besides reading Brunner, has led you to conclude that they not only sui generis, but that these works which were written in Greek (and not Aramaic) are literature of the "people of the land"?

What comparative studies of the Gospels' language, grammar, syntax, rhetorical forms and structures with that of refined 1st century Hellenistic writings -- including Hellenistic Jewish writings -- have you carried out to see if Brunner knew what he knew was talking about?


Quote:
Moreover, your blind devotion to Brunner has blinded you to the fact that Brunner was working from the naive, theologically motivated, and wholly unsupportable positions that Palestinian Judaism in Jesus' day was something that was and always had been hermetically sealed off from Hellenization, and that the Gospels were examples of Kleineliterature, and that therefore anything he says about Gospel origins and their literary nature and character that is grounded in this supposition is rubbish.
Quote:
So, do you deny that the Gospels are essentially Jewish literature,
Please define what you mean by "Jewish literature" and tell me how we recognize it. Just what is its literary and stylistic and compositional "essence"? Are the works of Philo not Jewish literature? Those of Josephus?

Quote:
and that they originated among the ammé haaretz?
Could you please show me that there actually was such a class as the people of the land AND that they ever produced any literature at all, let alone something on the order of Luke or John?

Quote:
Do you assert that there is Greek influence evident in Christ's words?
The issue of what is "in" Jesus' words is one that is quite distinct from the question of the Genre in which they were recorded. I'd be grateful if you'd keep these issues distinct. I'd also be grateful if you'd stop making the logically fallacious claim that if there is nothing "Greek" in Jesus words or teachings, then the writings that record them show no "Greek" influence at all, even in the way they go about recording them or in the shape of the frames into which Jesus' life and teaching is found.

Let me note that just as you were when you once previously claimed that ALL NT writings were Jewish literature written for Jews, you are, I think, painfully out of your depth here.

Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 11-25-2009, 04:23 PM   #140
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Robots View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
I guess you'd have difficulty explaining away Alan a'Dayle or the fight between Little John and Robin Hood. After all there's just too much you have to explain away for no reason to deny Robin Hood's historicity.
The likelihood of a literary figure's historicity is in proportion to that figure's impact on history.
How exactly does a figure's impact on history reflect the likelihood of their historicity? Will you support the historicity of Krishna on such an arbitrary basis?


spin
spin is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:51 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.