Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EthnAlln · 05-11-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Careful, or your reasoning may also lead you into acceptance of the conclusion that The Scriptures teach that;

".......Yahweh has mercy on whomsoever He will have mercy, and whomsoever He will, He hardens."

Life just isn't fair! and Yahweh's just a big old bully, and there is no gawd;
'cause any gawd that we would call good just wouldn't or couldn't cause, or let anything bad happen to anyone at all;
Nope, if he were any good, he'd just feed every single one of us milk and cookies everyday, and wipe our noses an arses fer us, an step right in to break up every stupid argument we start, and would keep us from stubbing our toes on any of the stones we were to lazy or stupid to watch out for.
Bwwaaa! Bwaaaa! Boo-hoo-hoo!
We just hate you gawd! an we are gonna run away! you'll see! Bwaaaa!
We'll tell on you! Boo-hoo! We'll tell! we'll tell everyone just what a bad, bad, meanie of an ol' gawd you really are! Boo-hoo-hoo!

Sarcasm aside, no one is saying God should feed us all milk and honey. But would it be too much to ask that he stop afflicting our babies with cancer, crushing them in earthquakes, incinerating them in volcanoes, sweeping them away in tsunamis.....?

EthnAlln · 05-11-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

G'morning!

While this does tend to simplify the issue somewhat, essentially it is correct.

What most of the people on this forum fail to realize is that you (we - *each* of us) have already *earned* a death sentence, and that we all live and breathe by the *Grace* of God quite literally. He can withdraw this Grace at any time and still be perfectly within His Province.

Humans have no buisiness (not to mention the capability of) judging God. As the Bible points out, He is the Potter and we are (again quite literally) the clay. We are dust, people, and Yahweh is GOD. He keeps the universes spiralling and fuels every star, yet still knows every thought each of us have before we have it.

Awesome!

If you can't be humble in the face of that, then I doubt anything else I say will mean anything at all. - Jesse.

Well, like Ockhamism, of which this is a variant, it solves the logical problem.

Tell me, is this how you comfort the mother of a child dying of leukemia?

What did the child do to deserve this awful suffering? The only answer I've ever heard is that Adam did it. So that means those who accept this answer are worshipping a God who punishes the innocent descendants of a sinner, babies even, who couldn't possibly have acted at any time otherwise than they did.

Jedi Mind Trick · 05-11-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

What most of the people on this forum fail to realize is that you (we - *each* of us) have already *earned* a death sentence, and that we all live and breathe by the *Grace* of God quite literally.

I think most of the people on this forum are aware of this aspect of Christian teaching we just don’t have any reason to believe it.
Tell me, was it or wasn’t it part of your god’s plan to have his creation born condemned?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

Humans have no buisiness (not to mention the capability of) judging God.

If there is a god he/she/it/them would be honored by the critical examination of truth claims, I would think. In fact, it seems a more suited praise to him than a thousand hymns.

Julian · 05-11-2006, 01:29 PM

I am curious as to why, if god created us, he created us in such a way that we deserve an instant death sentence, even before birth. It seems to me that the fault lies with the potter who is unable to create something worthy enough to live up to his own standards.

Maybe a different trade would suit him better...

Julian

Sheshbazzar · 05-11-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EthnAlln

Sarcasm aside, no one is saying God should feed us all milk and honey. But would it be too much to ask that he stop afflicting our babies with cancer, crushing them in earthquakes, incinerating them in volcanoes, sweeping them away in tsunamis.....?

Should babies alone receive some form of special isolation from everything that comes down upon the heads of all the rest of mankind?
And that only adults should be able to get cancer, or be crushed in earthquakes, or incinerated in volcanoes, and swept away in tsunamis?
Perhaps gawd should seal all the babies in the path of volcanic eruptions into little climate controlled bubbles, and float them around in the air until the lava cools, and all the burned bodies of their parents have decomposed, before he kindly releases them to play in the ashes?

All of us alike, believer and unbeliever suffer the same things, and if we are allowed to survive long enough to become adults, the things that we have seen, and the things that we have heard, and the things that we have experienced, should have sufficed to teach us the harsh lesson of life.

Suffering nothing we learn nothing, I had not known sorrow, except I had suffered loss, nor known joy, except that I had first experienced sorrow.
Therefore I give thanks to Him that brings upon me suffering and sorrow.

Hey Gawd, life's not fair!

Can't hear what He's saying? Listen closely,.....say you still can't hear Him?
OK then, let me clue you in;
Tough titty, you better get used to it, because that's the way it IS and that's the way its going to stay until the work is finished.

Bboyneko · 05-11-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonan22

I get that one too.

Them: "Well they were doing those babies a favor because by killing them it saved them from growing up in a society that didn't believe in god."

Me: "Uh huh. Why not let them live and just adopt them so that hey could have the greatest gift of all - growing up with god's people?"

Them: blank stare

The best part about 1 Samuel 15 is that God gets very very angry because the invading armies spared the life of..a goat. yes a goat. God was cool with them driving spears into the bellies of pregnant woman, grabbing babies off their mom's teats and dashing their heads into spaghetti-o's on rocks, in fact he ordered it.

What god was PISSED about is they spared the life of a Goat. God says, 'hey! I said kill EVERYTHING!!!??'

xaxxat · 05-11-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bboyneko

The best part about 1 Samuel 15 is that God gets very very angry because the invading armies spared the life of..a goat. yes a goat. God was cool with them driving spears into the bellies of pregnant woman, grabbing babies off their mom's teats and dashing their heads into spaghetti-o's on rocks, in fact he ordered it.

What god was PISSED about is they spared the life of a Goat. God says, 'hey! I said kill EVERYTHING!!!??'

Maybe he wanted them to burn that goat so he could get high on the smell of burning fat. The "creator" of the whole damn universe snorting burning goat fumes... Mmmmm :devil3:

Diogenes the Cynic · 05-11-2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Should babies alone receive some form of special isolation from everything that comes down upon the heads of all the rest of mankind?
And that only adults should be able to get cancer, or be crushed in earthquakes, or incinerated in volcanoes, and swept away in tsunamis?
Perhaps gawd should seal all the babies in the path of volcanic eruptions into little climate controlled bubbles, and float them around in the air until the lava cools, and all the burned bodies of their parents have decomposed, before he kindly releases them to play in the ashes?

Yes. Yes to all of it. Why not? If God has the ability to protect babies from volcanoes and disease then he has no moral excuse not to. He can also protect the parents while he's at it.

TomboyMom · 05-11-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EthnAlln

Sarcasm aside, no one is saying God should feed us all milk and honey. But would it be too much to ask that he stop afflicting our babies with cancer, crushing them in earthquakes, incinerating them in volcanoes, sweeping them away in tsunamis.....?

How about if he just doesn't order his minions to stab them to death, how would that be?

TomboyMom · 05-11-2006, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Should babies alone receive some form of special isolation from everything that comes down upon the heads of all the rest of mankind?

I'm not asking for this, only that your God not order his followers to slice them in half with the edge of their sword.

Quote:

And that only adults should be able to get cancer, or be crushed in earthquakes, or incinerated in volcanoes, and swept away in tsunamis?
Perhaps gawd should seal all the babies in the path of volcanic eruptions into little climate controlled bubbles, and float them around in the air until the lava cools, and all the burned bodies of their parents have decomposed, before he kindly releases them to play in the ashes?

No, although he is supposed to be all powerful.

Quote:

All of us alike, believer and unbeliever suffer the same things, and if we are allowed to survive long enough to become adults, the things that we have seen, and the things that we have heard, and the things that we have experienced, should have sufficed to teach us the harsh lesson of life.

That's if we survive. Of course, if Samuel's soldier stabbed you to death before you learned to walk, then what you got to learn was necessarily limited.

Quote:

Hey Gawd, life's not fair!

Hey Gawd, you're the most genocidal maniac in history!

Quote:

Can't hear what He's saying? Listen closely,.....say you still can't hear Him?
OK then, let me clue you in;
Tough titty, you better get used to it, because that's the way it IS and that's the way its going to stay until the work is finished.

Just exactly the way it would be if he didn't exist. How interesting. Hmmm...

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05-11-2006, 01:29 PM	#34
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	I am curious as to why, if god created us, he created us in such a way that we deserve an instant death sentence, even before birth. It seems to me that the fault lies with the potter who is unable to create something worthy enough to live up to his own standards. Maybe a different trade would suit him better... Julian

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