Freethought & Rationalism Archive

3DJay · 04-26-2007, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

What? You mean go back in my time machine and take a video of the wall before it gets destroyed? Umm, yeah, I would but my time machine is broke and in the shop right now. The repair man said I could get it back quicker if one of my good debate friends at IIDB was willing to hold their breath until it got fixed.

I have the Biblical reference that there were walls around Jericho and they collapsed mysteriously. We have confirmed that there was no occupation after the LBIIA level, little of which remains, but it is confirmed it was occupied into the reign of Amenhotep III, which agrees with my dating, and the Bible would date the fall in line with the last occupation followed by about 400 years of abandonment.

There was lots of erosion for this level with very little remaining and earlier levels presumably eroded away. No major walls per se from this level was found, but, again, we don't know by what mechanism of technique these walls mysteriously fell flat. If the walls turned to dust then there would be no bricks left to find. But if the archaeologists are looking for evidence of a normal wall that had fallen down instead of say unusual amounts of silt or something from a disintegraded wall then we are getting presumptions based upon presumptions.

So all I've confirmed is that there was an LBIIA occupation at both Bethel and Jericho, that's where the Bible dates these events, so that's great. I'm not worried about remains of a wall that fell miraculous may have been turned into dust. If that's not good enough for you, I understand. By all means continue to doubt.

Regardless, the 1550 BCE walls remain a separate level and incident.

LG47

So, all your archaeology talk, about Jericho, is meaningless. It doesn't show any walls, at the time you want them, it doesn't show a large city, at the time you want one, it doesn't show a violent collapse, and fire, at the time you want it. Instead of letting archaeology tell us what it was, you are making it up from the Bible, and can't prove it. Thank you for your honesty.

Peace

jess · 04-26-2007, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

But if the archaeologists are looking for evidence of a normal wall that had fallen down instead of say unusual amounts of silt or something from a disintegraded wall then we are getting presumptions based upon presumptions.

I think you should volunteer for a dig. Seriously. Archaeologists do not dig 'looking for something'. I mena, ok, they do, but not in the way you mean. I mean, they dig at location A because they have records and maps and artifacts adn reason to believe location A has stuff to yeild worth a dig (we can talk about all the science that goes into that later) and then they dig.

Carefully.

Marking every item/anomoly found. In detailed maps. Labbeled and concise.

They would not go: Hey, look at all this silt. Get rid of it, I'm looking for crumbled walls!

They would go: what caused all this silt?

Regardless, the Bible says the walls fell. If they went <poof!> the Bible'd said that. If they crumbled to dust, the Bible'd said that.

I find your tenacity amazing.

RED DAVE · 04-26-2007, 08:35 AM

From RED DAVE:

Quote:

A fool and his obsessions are not soon parted.

So, for fun, back to the beginning.

1) 2 1/2 million people allegedly wandering around in the desert.

2) No evidence whatseover of their presence.

3) Therefore, they weren't there.

Until Larsguy47 presents evidence for their presence, this stands.

The burden of proof is on him.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

You know, I too think perhaps there should be something surviving, but that for some reason there is just not that much left.

In your first sentence, you are already equivocating.

THERE IS NOTHING LEFT. And the reason is: there was nothing there in the first place.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

I don't know if that's usual or not.

It's perfectly usual.

WHERE THERE IS NOTHING, THERE WILL BE NOTHING LEFT.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

We don't know everything about them

By "them" I assume you mean the ancient Hebrews. One thing we know: large numbers of them were not in the desert in the Late Bronze Age. How do we know this? Because there is no evidence that they were there.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

and who knows if there is some way to confirm them that hasn't been realized yet.

You are equivocating. That area has been subject to archaeological digs for over a hundred years. There is no evidence that 2 1/2 million people lived in this area for forty years, and settled in one spot (Kadesh Barnea) for 38 of them.

Their piss alone would change to soil enough to leave traces.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

So I don't blame you for holding out on this

I'm not holding out. You are. You are holding out in order to cling to religious fantasy that 2 1/2 million people lived in a place and at a time where there is no archaeoogical record of them.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

but they had to go somewhere.

No they didn't. Not if they didn't exist as a mass of 2 1/2 million people (the approximate size of the population of all of Egypt at the time) in the first place.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

They were in Egypt

There is no evidence of 2 1/2 million Hebrews living in Egypt at that time or any other time.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

the Ten Plagues really did happen

There is no archaeological evience for this. It's bullshit.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

Akhenaten did trip out and become a monotheist, so.

Aobove and beyond your quaint, language, okay.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

We're just missing the expect "archaeological" evidence.

Because it doesn't exist. Your attribution of the religious conversion of Akenaton is a pure guess on your part. There is no evidence whatsoever to support it.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

But as soon at the neighbors kick in and get their records going, the presence of Israel and Judah are right there paralleling everything. So again, I'm wondering why is it their have a rather straightforward history from the time of Solomon and Shishak through the Persian Period, and have to invent things for their stay in the wilderness?

Irrelevent. The story of the sojourn in Egypt and the Exodus are fantasies. There is no evidence for either one. Get that? NO EVIDENCE.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

So we'll see. We can't always expect a complete and comprehensive archaeological record.

There has been study in that desert for over a hundred years, including at Kadesh Barnea. Do you really believe that they missed the presence of 2 1/2 million people?

So:

1) 2 1/2 million people allegedly wandering around in the desert.

2) No evidence whatseover of their presence.

3) Therefore, they weren't there.

RED DAVE

3DJay · 04-26-2007, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Thus note. The war begins in 403BCE and the 10th year of the war ends a 30-year peace agreement in 394BCE. This would be the original 30-year peace agreement evoked at the time of Xerxes' invasion, presumably, so we use this reference to test the dating for Xerxes invasion 30 years earlier than 394BCE, which is 424BCE. See? We have two tests, initially:

1) Is this an Olympic year? YES.
2) Is there an eclipse at the very beginning of spring this year? YES.

We then test against Bible chronology:

1) If Xerxes invasion was in 424BCE, then the Battle of Marathon would fall in 434BCE. Per the Bible that is the 6th of Darius when the 1st of Cyrus is dated to 455BCE! The temple was completed 22 years after it began in the last month of the 6th of Darius, that means 433BCE + 22 = 455BCE. Therefore, Darius, only ruling for six years, would have to die the same year as the Battle of Marathon!

Test 1: Is this "an" Olympic year? Wrong question. Which Olympic year is it, is the right question. http://www.greektexts.com/library/Th...eng/index.html

Quote:

At the Olympic games which were held this summer, and in which the Arcadian Androsthenes was victor the first time in the wrestling and boxing, the Lacedaemonians were excluded from the temple by the Eleans, and thus prevented from sacrificing or contending, for having refused to pay the fine specified in the Olympic law imposed upon them by the Eleans, who alleged that they had attacked Fort Phyrcus, and sent heavy infantry of theirs into Lepreum during the Olympic truce. ...

Great fears were felt in the assembly of the Lacedaemonians coming in arms, especially after Lichas, son of Arcesilaus, a Lacedaemonian, had been scourged on the course by the umpires; because, upon his horses being the winners, and the Boeotian people being proclaimed the victor on account of his having no right to enter, he came forward on the course and crowned the charioteer, in order to show that the chariot was his. After this incident all were more afraid than ever, and firmly looked for a disturbance: the Lacedaemonians, however, kept quiet, and let the feast pass by, as we have seen. After the Olympic games, the Argives and the allies repaired to Corinth to invite her to come over to them. ...

Thus the winter ended and the twelfth year of this war ended also.

http://www1.fhw.gr/cgi-bin/olympics/victors.cgi

Quote:

420 BC Dolichos Argos Aristeus
420 BC Boys' Wrestling Elis Amertas
420 BC Horse Race Kos Xenombrotos
420 BC Boys' Boxing Lepreon Theantos
420 BC Pankration Mainalos Androsthenes
420 BC Tethrippon Sparta Lichas
420 BC Stadion Syracuse Hyperbios

12th year = 431 starting date.

You have to move the Olympics with your timeline. The Olympics have winners until 277 CE.

Good luck.

Peace

Hex · 04-26-2007, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Yes there was. It was destroyed in 1346 BCE to be exact.

But why is this bothering you? People have been arguing about Jericho for centuries?

In fact (using fact), Lars, there wasn't.

And it's a pivotal point of your dating issue. The fact that you're clinging religiously to a story where the facts done't add up. And doing it in a place where people use 'fact' as their criteria for belief.

And, while people may have been arguing it for centuries, and even trying to warp the facts to fit the story (Garstang), it's not until the middle of last century that we get the facts. You can't just dismiss them because they don't fit with your theory and expect to be taken seriously. :wave:

Hex · 04-26-2007, 12:42 PM

Okay ...

I was getting ready to point Lars back to the nice paper I dug up by O. Bar-Yosef, "The Walls of Jericho: An Alternative Interpretation" when I asked myself what the point was. :banghead:

There are no remains of walls after the ~1550BC ones. The ones standing now are the unearthed ones from before that. These walls were built on foundations, usually just mud-brick retaining rubble. We would know if they were there and had been 'pillaged', as pillagers wouldn't have taken the rubble, just the bricks (as they have from other structures on the tel.

But the thing is, that we've been masterfully steered away from each and every point that we've made.

We -were- discussing the Sinai penninsula and the lack of Exodus related archaeological evidence. What happened Lars? Look at the title of the thread:

Why no archaeological evidence of wilderness trek?

I don't give a rat's ass what the British Museum thinks (or doesn't) about your interpretation of an astronomical event. Let's get back to brass tacks here.

Address the issue of the thread. If you want to get into something totally unrelated, take it to a new thread.

If anyone still has doubts about the archaeological evidence of the Exodus wilderness stuff, I'm willing to keep going. Otherwise, I'm out of this thread. :wave:

And Lars, if no-one else cares and I leave the thread, it in no way means 'I'm running away' from your superior arguement. I keep hoping you actually -have- an argument hidden in your red herrings, smokescreens and repetition. :huh:

Sauron · 04-26-2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hex

Why no archaeological evidence of wilderness trek?

Simple.

God sent hundreds of angels with dust brooms and pooper-scoopers to clean up after the Hebrews.:Cheeky:

RED DAVE · 04-26-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron

God sent hundreds of angels with dust brooms and pooper-scoopers to clean up after the Hebrews.

Are you implying that we Hebrews keep a dirty desert?

RED DAVE

Hex · 04-26-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron

Simple.

God sent hundreds of angels with dust brooms and pooper-scoopers to clean up after the Hebrews.:Cheeky:

:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

Now how come when you say it it's funny and not pathetic? :Cheeky:

Johann_Kaspar · 04-26-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Why do we have plenty of evidence of the Jews after Shishak's invasion, which basically confirms the "state of Israel" as represented in the Bible, but virtually zilch from the time of the Exodus until then? and in particular apparently not a single shred of evidence of any wilderness trek? I mean, the Jews were in one place almost 38 years apparently. Why no evidence?

Well you know all about chronology, but evidently you are completely ignorant of an Italian archaeologist. Too bad. Anyone interested by the time of Exod should know this. Not that it would fit into your "chronology".

By the way, humanity being some milleniums old, that was the best joke of the day. I am still laughing thinking at it.

04-26-2007, 12:42 PM	#206
Hex Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: www.rationalpagans.com Posts: 445	*sigh* Okay ... I was getting ready to point Lars back to the nice paper I dug up by O. Bar-Yosef, "The Walls of Jericho: An Alternative Interpretation" when I asked myself what the point was. :banghead: There are no remains of walls after the ~1550BC ones. The ones standing now are the unearthed ones from before that. These walls were built on foundations, usually just mud-brick retaining rubble. We would know if they were there and had been 'pillaged', as pillagers wouldn't have taken the rubble, just the bricks (as they have from other structures on the tel. But the thing is, that we've been masterfully steered away from each and every point that we've made. We -were- discussing the Sinai penninsula and the lack of Exodus related archaeological evidence. What happened Lars? Look at the title of the thread: Why no archaeological evidence of wilderness trek? I don't give a rat's ass what the British Museum thinks (or doesn't) about your interpretation of an astronomical event. Let's get back to brass tacks here. Address the issue of the thread. If you want to get into something totally unrelated, take it to a new thread. If anyone still has doubts about the archaeological evidence of the Exodus wilderness stuff, I'm willing to keep going. Otherwise, I'm out of this thread. :wave: And Lars, if no-one else cares and I leave the thread, it in no way means 'I'm running away' from your superior arguement. I keep hoping you actually -have- an argument hidden in your red herrings, smokescreens and repetition. :huh:

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