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Old 04-17-2012, 09:14 AM   #11
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As I said, read this:

Justin Martyr
Quote it. Here.
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Originally Posted by Justin Martyr
CHAPTER XXI -- ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

CHAPTER XXII -- ANALOGIES TO THE SONSHIP OF CHRIST.

Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods. And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated. For their sufferings at death are recorded to have been not all alike, but diverse; so that not even by the peculiarity of His sufferings does He seem to be inferior to them; but, on the contrary, as we promised in the preceding part of this discourse, we will now prove Him superior--or rather have already proved Him to be so--for the superior is revealed by His actions. And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Ferseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by AEsculapius.
That's better.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:39 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Justin Martyr
CHAPTER XXI -- ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know.
I think you need to be careful about using Justin Martyr to show parallels between pagan and Christian beliefs. Justin was trying to prove that these parallels existed to a pagan audience that thought Christians believed something unusual. Thus his claim to them: "We [Christians] propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter". He was trying to PROVE that Christianity was similar to pagan beliefs, he wasn't trying to explain the similarities away.

Have a look at the parallels he produces above: Christ being crucified and going to heaven is the same as:

* AEsculapius being struck by a thunderbolt and ascending
* Bacchus being torn limb-from-limb and ascending
* Hercules dying a fiery death and ascending
* Bellerophon riding to heaven on the winged horse Pegasus
* Ariadne being set among the stars
* Julius Caesar's spirit being seen to rise to heaven from his funeral pyre

So why didn't the pagans see the parallels? Justin explains it was because the devil tried to copy the prophecies of the Hebrew prophets, but got them wrong. From his First Apology:
"And these things were said both among the Greeks and among all nations where they [the demons] heard the prophets foretelling that Christ would specially be believed in; but that in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it, but imitated what was said of our Christ, like men who are in error, we will make plain."
Some of his parallels are close (Justin mentions Perseus being born of a virgin as an obvious parallel, for example), others not so close. Obviously a man riding his flying horse to heaven is a parallel to Jesus being crucified and then ascending to heaven in some way, but depending on the argument it may not be a meaningful parallel. Justin can be used to show beliefs in dying-and-rising gods, but some use him to show beliefs in crucified gods, which he obviously doesn't support. So Justin needs to be used carefully as a source for parallels. For those interested, I go into more details on my website page that looks at Diabolical Mimicry.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:01 PM   #13
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Pagans always strain to find pagan parallels: they usually ignore the obvious Jewish parallels, like Elijah, described in this post.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:44 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Justin Martyr
CHAPTER XXI -- ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; .....


Have a look at the parallels he produces above: Christ being crucified and going to heaven is the same as:

* AEsculapius being struck by a thunderbolt and ascending ....

Here are some further parallels between Asclepius and Jesus, sourced from the book Asclepius: The God of Medicine by Gerald D. Hart. It should be noted that most of Hart's sources are to be found in Asclepius: Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Emma J. Edelstein, Ludwig Edelstein, Gary B. Ferngren.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HART
p.184

Christ and Asclepius were both prosecuted under
the law of the day and died a mortal death ...

After their deaths, Christ and Asclepius were resurrected.

Christ returned to Earth as part of a heavenly plan
and as a sign to his followers.

Asclepius was resuscitated to continue the medical
care of mankind with the proviso that he would desist
from raising the dead.

Both were gods who lived among mankind:
Christ a divine human and Asclepius a terrestrial divinity.

Both possessed "divine hands":
Asclepius' were his drugs and light touch in healing
(C healed by touch or blessed and consecrated men for service)

Strong family associations:
Jesus with his mother Mary
Asclepius with his daughter Hygieia

Each part of a Holy Trinity:
Jesus - Father, Son, Holy Goul
Asclepius - 3rd in descent from Zeus, son of Apollo,
who was in turn Zeus' son.

"the one who is guide and ruler of all things,


There are truckloads and truckloads of archaeological evidence for the cult of Asclepius, which was distributed in a network of major temples and shrines all across the Roman Empire, and beyond it.

But we do not have so much as one TRINKET or figurine for Jesus until the cult was established as the centralised monotheistic state religion in the 4th century. The army of the Roman Emperor at that time was ordered to utterly destroy the major temples of Asclepius in the empire, and to set examples to all the other smaller relogious cults by the public execution of chief priests.

At the same time, the literary works at that time, such as the polemic entitled THE TREATISE OF EUSEBIUS, THE SON OF PAMPHILUS, AGAINST THE LIFE OF APOLLONIUS OF TYANA WRITTEN BY PHILOSTRATUS, OCCASIONED BY THE PARALLEL DRAWN BY HIEROCLES BETWEEN HIM AND CHRIST, demonstrate that the "Minister for Communications and Propaganda" was employed to do a number on the enemies of the Emperor, because Apollonius was a priest of Asclepius.

The tall poppy of the Graeco-Roman religious cults Asclepius went DOWN at Nicaea via polemic and military action, while the new and strange story of Jesus in the Constantine Bible was replicated fifty-fold in the inperial scriptoria.

Chairman Mao had his "Little Red Book" and Bullneck had his Bible.

When are those who seek the historical truth of christian origins going to put two and two together?
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:11 PM   #15
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Pagans always strain to find pagan parallels....
Such as the manner by which the emperor Diocletian determined that the christians were hacking into and interfering with the communication feeds between Apollo and the priests of Apollo? Who in their right mind believes this woo-woo bullshit supposedly historical story from Big E.?
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:13 PM   #16
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Someone shot an email to me mentioning about a supposed ten or so figures which match up with Jesus story including Horus, Zoroaster, etc.

I was wondering if there were any recommended/scholarly sources on these figures so I could do a bit more research? I have heard the name Archaya S. before but I don't know how credible that source is and I would prefer to be able to find more than 1 or 2 people talking about these things. It isn't that I don't think it could be true but I want to make sure that I actually look into it first.
There are recent, scholarly books on figures like Mithras, Zoroaster, Osiris, et al. I would start with those. Too many people rely on 100+ year old research like Kersey Graves or Sir James Frazer. They were good for their time and are still worth reading, but scholarship in this field has advanced tectonically since those days.

"Backgrounds of Early Christianity" by Everett Ferguson is a pretty good one volume overview of everything that was going on at the time in religion.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:37 PM   #17
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Some posts have been split off here for being a little too scatological.

Acharya S is a registered user here.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:06 PM   #18
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Well I think this certainly will fill my plate up with things to look into.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:39 PM   #19
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I think that Justin Martyr might be the best source for pagan parallels to the Jesus story?

Why would he lie?
Problem is, Justin contradicts himself in his I Apology.

I Apology 21:

Quote:
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.
I Apology 55:

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But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:48 PM   #20
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And then he goes on in explaining why the "Sons of Jupiter" did not imitate "the being crucified."

Quote:
And this, as the prophet foretold, is the greatest symbol of His power and role; as is also proved by the things which fall under our observation. For consider all the things in the world, whether without this form they could be administered or have any community. For the sea is not traversed except that trophy which is called a sail abide safe in the ship; and the earth is not ploughed without it: diggers and mechanics do not their work, except with tools which have this shape. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross. And so it was said by the prophet, “The breath before our face is the Lord Christ.” And the power of this form is shown by your own symbols on what are called “vexilla” [banners] and trophies, with which all your state possessions are made, using these as the insignia of your power and government, even though you do so unwittingly. And with this form you consecrate the images of your emperors when they die, and you name them gods by inscriptions. Since, therefore, we have urged you both by reason and by an evident form, and to the utmost of our ability, we know that now we are blameless even though you disbelieve; for our part is done and finished.
It's all about the Sign of the Cross, by which, Justin contends, even images of the Roman Emperors are deified by this form at their funerals. Beginning with Julius Caesar.
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