Thomas II

Not only they destroyed documents after the Nicene council, but the possesion of certain documents was enough reason to have someone killed!

And yes,there was a time too when for them the scent of human flesh burning in the morning smelled like...victory...

Enda80

Actually, an even easier way to supress books was simply not to have them copied. The paper would rot away with time. Bart D. Ehrman in his book Truth Fiction Da Vinci code noted this as the preferred method.

jakejonesiv

Jay,

Good points.

I think that "orthodox" Christianity has long been intolerant of other points of view due to the claims of exclusivity made for it. An intolerance that is consistent with book burning.

The is indeed Biblical sanction for the burning of books.

Acts 19:19-20

I don't know why people on this thread are denying it. Burning books is one of the most Christian things you can do.

Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

In case someone objects that the above is an unfair characterization, here is a quote from the catholic encyclopedia.

When the Church, after the era of persecution, was given greater liberty, a censorship of books appears more plainly. The First Ecumenical Council of Nicæa (325) condemned not only Arius personally, but also his book entitled "Thalia"; Constantine commanded that the writings of Arius and his friends should everywhere be delivered up to be burned; concealment of them was forbidden under pain of death. In the following centuries, when and wherever heresies sprung up, the popes of Rome and the oecumenical councils, as well as the particular synods of Africa, Asia, and Europe, condemned, conjointly with the false doctrines, the books and writings containing them. (Cf. Hilgers, Die Bücherverbote in Papstbriefen.) The latter were ordered to be destroyed by fire, and illegal preservation of them was treated as a heinous criminal offense. The authorities intended to make the reading of such writings simply impossible. Pope St. Innocent I, enumerating in a letter of 405 a number of apocryphal writings, rejects them as non solum repudianda sed etiam damnanda. It is the first attempt at a catalog of forbidden books. The so-called "Decretum Gelasianum" contains many more, not only apocryphal,but also heretical, or otherwise objectionable writings. It is not without reason that this catalog has been called the first "Roman Index" of forbidden books. The books in question were not unfrequently examined in the public sessions of councils. There are also cases in which the popes themselves (e.g., Innocent I and Gregory the Great) read and examined a book sent to them and finally condemned it. As regards the kinds and content of writings forbidden in ancient times, we find among them, besides apocryphal and heretical books, forged acts of martyrs, spurious penitentials, and superstitious writings. In ancient times, information about objectionable books was sent from both East and West to Rome, that they might be examined, and, if necessary, forbidden by the Apostolic See. Thus at the beginning of the Middle Ages, there existed, in all its essentials, though without specified clauses, a prohibition and censorship of books throughout the Catholic Church. Popes as well as councils, bishops no less than synods, considered it then, as always, their most sacred duty to safeguard the purity of faith and to protect the souls of the faithful by condemning and forbidding any dangerous book. (emphasis added)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03519d.htm

So I will ask again, why attempt to whitewash what the Catholic Church considers to be a virtue, indeed "their most sacred duty"?

Jake Jones IV

Roger Pearse

Thank you for the reference. Slightly fuller:

Jews and Christians in Egypt : the Jewish troubles in Alexandria and the Athanasian controversy / edited by H.Idris Bell ; with three Coptic texts, edited by W.E. Crum
Series: Greek papyri in the British Museum, vol. 6.
Publisher: London : British Museum, printed by order of the Trustees, 1924
Physical desc.: xii, 140p : ill, 5 plates of facsimiles.
Note: According to the preface of vol. 7, this was afterwards designated vol. 6 of Greek papyri in the British Museum.
English text, translation and notes; Greek text

Sadly this still seems to be in copyright, since Bell died after 1945 (otherwise I'd scan the letter and shove it online).

It seems a little curious that Athanasius would have the time, given the fact that he was in exile so much, but very much in the tradition of later Patriarchs.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

mikem

I read something similar about the Nag H. docs. in Elaine Pagels "Beyond Belief". The fact of the matter is that no one knows when or why the NH. docs were buried, and it is speculation on the part of revisionist scholars like Pagels to suggest that they were hidden in response to pressures from the orthodox leadership of the church. It is an idea that has taken hold however, because it lends support to these scholars' view that early Christianity was a tangle of different groups struggling for supremacy.

TedM

Do we know what happened to Jewish writings that originated in the 1st century? I don't know Jewish history, but clearly the Jews have gone to great lengths to maintain their identity over the centuries. I would think that even with the persecution towards them, some of their documents would have survived--letters, religious stories, etc... Is that the case or do we actually have nothing from the period in which Christianity appears to have begun? I"m not talking about any documents that reflect the acceptance of Christianity in one form or another...

ted

robto

Well, we know of various Jewish texts that only survived because Christians copied them. I'm not sure if I remember correctly which texts, but I'm thinking Enoch, and possibly the Sybillines?

But why do you ask?

TedM

I'm trying to find texts that give a picture of 1st century Palestine-Judea, without Christian influence, in order to perhaps gain better insight into how Christianity arose.

jakejonesiv

ted,

Great question. I have put together a few thoughts in the hopes it will help your investigation.

Philo of Alexandria comes to mind. I am having a hard time coming up with Jewish writings from Palestine that can be definitely dated to the first century. Many were probably destroyed around 70 CE. Maybe the Assumption of Moses, aka The Testamanent of Moses which has been variously dated. See here

Since Christians showed a preference for the LXX over the Hebrew Bible, Philo seems like a reasonable place to start. Perhaps Justin's Logos Christianity owes a debt to Philo. Here are a few references that seem to be precusors of Christianity.

in Philo, "De Opificio Mundi") in which "let _us_ make man in our own image" is interpreted as God having assistants in the creation, who none the less share in the divine nature.

We find that the Logos allegorically in terms of the divine mediator who links God and man. We find specific mention of God sending the Logos in deliverance from evil.
"And the same is the case with regard to the soul, the good things, namely food, he [God] gives to men by his power alone [without mediation], but those which contain in them a deliverance from evil, he gives by means of his angels and his Logos. "Allegorical Interpretation III", LXII (178).

"But Hagar flees out of shame. And the proof of this is that the angel, that is the Logos of God, met her …" "De Fuga Et Inventione" (5).

Philo also assigns the Logos as the nourisher and feeder of the soul
"The hierophant and prophet Moses … [tells] This is the bread, the food which God has given for the nourishment of the soul (Exodus 16:15), explaining that God has brought it, his own Logos and his own reason; for this bread which he has given us to eat is this Logos of his." "Allegorical Interpretation III", LXI (174).


'On dreams', I, (238) "God at times assumes the likeness of the angels, as he sometimes assumes even that of men"

"On the Embassy to Gaius" 13:99 "announcing the gospel" (albeit in reference to pagan gods) to mankind and 16:118 "it would be easier to change a god into man, than a man into god".

"In Flaccum" IX (72) "And those who did these things, mimicked the sufferers … [who] were lead away to prison, were scourged, were tortured, and after all the ill treatment which their living bodies could endure, found the cross the end of all, and the punishment from which they could not escape." http://tinyurl.com/9synv


In Chapter 21 of his essay concerning the change of name: “Ieosus means the Lord’s Salvation being the name of the most excellent possible nature.�
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...lo/book20.html

According to Philo of Alexandria, Moses was deified when he ascended to Mount Sinai. It was deemed as an ascent into heaven.
De Somnii 1.36
De Posteritute Caini 28.31
De Confusione Linguarum 30-32
Quaestones et Solutioners in Exodum 2.29

Since Joshua alone was said to have accompanied him (
http://tinyurl.com/cecnh ), legend grew that Joshua shared in that deification, and the ascent and descent to heaven/Sinai. This legend lies behind Ephesians 4:8-10. The Targum on the Psalms 68:18 reads: 'Thou ascendedst up to the firmament, O prophet Moses, thou tookest captives captive, thou didst teach the words of the Law, thou gavest them as gifts to the children of men'.

In the beginning of the exodus tale, The Angel of Lord was to lead the Israelites to the promised land, and this same Angel was to bear the name of God never before revealed. The very name of God himself, which
would make this name the highest name anywhere. Philo
interpreted this angel to be the Logos. It turns out that Jesus/Joshua is the one who (according to the legendary tale) actually lead the Israelites to the promised land. As noted by Justin, this would make the Angel of the Lord's name "Jesus," a name likely bestowed on Oshea by God.
When? It doesn't say, but the most likely time is when Joshua/Jesus accompanied Moses on the ascent of Mt. Sinai, interpreted by later
legend as an ascent to heaven.

We should remember that according to Phillipians 2, Jesus Christ also received a name change. According to Earl Doherty, the name of Jesus was only bestowed after being exalted. http://tinyurl.com/8kb7w Is there an allegorical connection to the Exodus tale?

In the first chapter of The "Assumption of Moses", Moses is stated to be pre-existent, the mediator of God's covenant "prepared before the foundation of the world." As Moses death approached, he ordered Joshua (i.e. Jesus) to anoint (christen) his writings. These words were to be preserved until the Visitation of the Lord in the end of days. Joshua was tasked with completing the mission of Moses.

"and he called to him Joshua the son of Nun ....
saying to Joshua these words...
Accordingly He (God) designed and devised me (Moses),
and He prepared me before the foundation of the world,
that I should be the mediator of His covenant. And now
I declare unto you that the time of the years of my
life is fulfilled and I am passing away to sleep with
my fathers even in the presence of all the people And
receive this writing that you may know how to preserve
the books which I shall deliver unto you: and you
shall set these in order and anoint them with oil of
cedar and put them away in earthen vessels in the
place which He made from the beginning of the creation
of the world, that His name should be called upon
until the day of repentance in the visitation
wherewith the Lord will visit them in the consummation
of the end of the days." Assumption of Moses, 1.12-14.
http://www.piney.com/Testament-Moses.html

The "Assuption of Moses" is incomplete, so we don't know if Jesus accompanied Moses to Mt. Nebo or not in that work. Our extant portion ends with Moses giving Jesus his final instructions.

Since the alleged grave of Moses was unknown (Deut. 34:6), it was assumed he was wafted to heaven. (Or one Moses buried and his double to heaven).

It has been suggested that Clement’s Stromata records the lost ending of "The Assumption of Moses." This cannot be definitively proven, because Clement does not say what the source of his tale might be. However, it does make a complete story when the two are read together.

“Rightly, therefore, Jesus the son of Nave saw Moses, when taken up [to heaven], double,-one Moses with the angels, and one on the mountains, honoured with burial in their ravines. And Jesus saw this spectacle below, being elevated by the Spirit, along also with Caleb.
But both do not see similarly But the one descended
with greater speed, as if the weight he carried was great; while the other, on descending after him, subsequently related the glory which he beheld, being able to perceive more than the other as having grown purer;� Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book 6,
Chapter XV http://tinyurl.com/8k549

For my son Iesous shall be revealed… and after these
(400) years my son the messiah will die… and the world
will be turned back to primordial silence for seven
days. 4 Ezra 7:28f

On the subject of 4 Ezra 7:28f, M Magee
http://tinyurl.com/a6vyu observed

“Some say the Latin has a Christian interpolation here, but why should a Christian insert the name Iesous into a reference to the “dying messiah� (of whom we learn more from Rabbinic Judaism) without rearranging the other details such as the 400 year reign between the messiah’s advent and death?�
In fact the 400 years is so jarring that it was altered to a less galling 30 years in the Syriac version.


Jake