gregor

Mr. McHugh reminded me of an issue about Luke/Acts. The issue is how Acts could be written by the same author as Luke, if they seem to describe the ascension differently.

McHugh states:

-------------------------
"A problem for the apologist is that in Luke 24:9-53 there is a continuous commentary that goes from the finding of the empty tomb, to Jesus meeting the apostles in Jerusalem, through to Jesus ascending. The commentary presents all those events as occurring on the day of the resurrection."
--------------------------

Yet in Acts 1 it recounts that Jesus appeared to many during the 40 days after the resurrection.

Is there any explanation for this apparent contradiction?

Infidelettante

Interesting Amos. Oddly enough there are some Christopagans who accept the Magdalene as the mother of Jesus. The three Marys of the NT are: The Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, Mary mother of Jesus’ brothers and sisters, and the other Mary who is the older Magdalene at the crucifixion and resurrection. We see then that there is but one Mary who occupies the three offices of the Triune Goddess: Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Jesus is the young God who, born in midst of the darkness of winter matures to become his own father and then sacrifices himself to be reborn in the continuing and eternal cycle of birth, life, death, and rebirth.

One is lead to think that the Temple cult of Yahweh failed in it’s effort to turn the Chosen from their worship of Goddess and her consort and that the true story of the Gospels is the survival of her devotion in the face of relentless persecution. Paul was wrong, of course.

JT

Farrell Till

According to a report posted at ii_errancy, Gastrich received 11 votes. During his tenure on this list, he claimed that he couldn't answer some posts directed to him because he was busy in his campaign for governor, but he never even got his name on the ballot. He also told us that he would be appearing on the Tonight Show, but this never happened.

Farrell Till

I have had a lot of experiencing debating Jason Gastrich, or rather I should say trying to debate him. He knows nothing at all about how to debate. If he can't answer an argument--and that happens more often than not--he will just skip it or claim that it is irrelevant.

If anyone wants to see an unanswerable example of a contradiction in the resurrection narratives, I suggest that you read my article
"The Mary Magdalene problem." It shows that the depiction of Mary M in Matthew's gospel cannot be reconciled with how she was
depicted in John's gospel.

Could someone show me how to link to URLs in this forum? I incorrectly assumed that substituting [ ] for the < > would do it,
but obviously I was wrong.

Amos

Very nice Infidelettante but I disagree -- if only for the sake of argument!

In my perspective the four identities Mary, Christ, Adam and Eve all belong to one person and they are just personifications of the forces that influence our volition. It goes something like this, when we are young only Adam and Eve are the major players but as we get older Mary and Christ become more active and may even over throw the reign of Adam so we may enter upon the reign of God. This would make Christ the second Adam and Mary the second Eve.

Mary and Christ belong to our subsonscious mind and Adam and Eve to our conscious mind. Joseph is Adam and Eve is Magdalene to whom Joseph was 'married' ever since adolescence (re-routing of neuro pathways(?)). The betrothal of Joseph to Mary was a feeling of melancholy in the mind of Joseph and it was upon the persistence of this emotion that rebirth was conceived in both minds. JBap was conceived in the subconscious to to passify Adam and Eve in the conscious mind and that is what ensured the Virgin birth lest Magdalene would interfere and trump the rebirth event.

So yes, Magdalene can give birth to Jesus but that will be from a malevolent identity in which case Epiphany would never follow the event because Lucifer (Eve's angel) doesn't have the staying power to enlighten Joseph for 10 days until the Magi arrive.

You say the "old Magdalene" returns to the foot of the cross. Yes, this would be Eve who was left stranded as the wife of Joseph who's sins were crucified on the cross. Notice that Joseph came for the body, which was the ego that Eve had helped create and therefore Eve was completely without a sense of identity . . . wherefore it remained dark for her at the tomb.

Three Marys? There was Mary theotokos who was virgin because she had never been propositioned by Adam since he was a loyal servant to Eve who caused his human desires. Eve befriended Jesus-the-Jew after rebirth under the name of Magdalene while Joseph remained aloof as the old exhausted slave to his senses who's neuro pathways had been re-routed when the veil was rent (beyond desire).

I can go along with one Mary and three roles if Eve was a sublet of Mary and was later usurped by Mary (raised into the TOL at the "last supper"). Maiden to entice Eve while she was captive, Mother in purgatory, and Queen of heaven and earth after Assumption and Coronation.

Based on the above the Gospels take place in the mind of one person and can take place in the mind of every person. If this can take place in the mind of every person the brothers and sisters of Jesus can be many and, in fact, if I am a Christian Jesus is also my brother and Mary would be my mother once I can actually grasp this concept (they say that Mary is very enigmatic). This would also make room for the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Jesus is born at midnight, midwinter, midlife to spell 666 which is the darkest point in life when Mary first appears into the conscious mind. She's the whore of Babylon in that she exhausted Eve that caused the end of involution in the mind of Joseph (during which time the tower of Babel was built; see also Albrecht Duhrer's "Melancholia").

Jesus was the Christ-child (God) that was born into the conscious mind to remove Adam (who was the proud owner of the ego) from power over the volition of man. Until this time, man as human was driven by Eve and by the curse upon the serpent that was driving Eve (the curse upon the serpent is the emnity between the serpent and woman).

By annihilating this power over the volition of man the child makes it possible for the inner man to take charge of his own destiny and so Jesus becomes the father of man while he dies to set the inner man free under the name of Bar-abbas now fully man.

judge

I'm not an inerrantist nor do I claim that the gospels are inspired in any way, but I notice Sean asks for the following.

would suggest that the only proper way to sort out the confusion is for Jason to propose a single account covering the discovery of the empty tomb and the reporting to the apostles. It would need to contain all the details from the four gospels that are pertinent to that section.

The following was put together by a friend of mine(:notworthy )and seems to cover this. Maybe Sean, or another has some comments?



Matt.28:1 (KJV)In the end of the sabbath, as it began to
dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and
the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

What time is it? It is "In" the end of the sabbath. "In" means
it is still the sabbath day, Saturday. What part of Saturday is it? It is in
the end of it. When does the Sabbath day end and the next day begin? Sundown!It is the last part of the sabbath day, as it began to "dawn toward" the first day of the week.
The words "dawn toward" are from the Greek word epiphosko
(G2020). This word epiphosko occurs only 2 times in the Bible - here in
Matt.28:1, and in Luke 23:54.

Luke 23:53-5453) And he took it down, and wrapped it in
linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein
never man before was laid. 54) And that day was the preparation,
and the sabbath drew on (epiphosko).

The first usage is regarding the timing of Jesus' burial.The
second is regarding the timing of Jesus' resurrection, 3 days and 3 nights later. Matthew 28:1 is NOT referring to the time of day when the sun is rising, as mentioned in other places.Matthew 28:1 is the 1st of 4 visits by Mary Magdalene to the sepulchre in about a 12 hour period. This is the only record of the FIRST visit Mary Magdalene makes to the sepulchre. During this visit she was not alone - another Mary was with her. They LOOKED at the sepulchre, and then left. Then the events of verses 2-4 took place.

Matthew 28:2-42) And, behold, there was a great
earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came
and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.3)
His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as
snow:4) And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as
dead men.
That is what happened "in the end of the sabbath day". Then the
next chronological event that occurs is Mary's second visit, hours
later, and it is recorded in John 20.

John 20:1-2a1) The first day of the week cometh Mary
Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth
the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2) Then she runneth,
and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom
Jesus loved.

This is Mary Magdalene's 2nd visit. John is the only place this
second visit is recorded. The time of this second visit is now Sunday, "the
first day of the week." And it is EARLY, so early in fact that it is "yet dark."
Upon arriving at the sepulchre Mary notices that the stone is moved away and the sepulchre is open, and the Roman soldiers are either sleeping or dead or something in between. As a result she RUNS to Peter to tell him that she believes someone has stolen Jesus' body. She hasn't seen any angels yet. And no angels have spoken to her yet. Otherwise she would not have told Peter this...

John 20:2bThey have taken away the Lord out of the
sepulchre, and we (Aramaic texts read "I") know not where they have
laid him.

No place did any of the angels tell anyone that Jesus' body had
been taken away! But this was what Mary thought based on what she saw when she arrived at the sepulchre on this her 2nd of 4 visits. And this
visit was a short one. She had just been at the sepulchre a few hours ago near the end of the weekly sabbath day. But now things were different. The stone was gone, and the soldiers looked dead – not at all what she expected. She had to tell someone a crime had been committed. The first person she thought to tell wa Peter. It was NOT on the sabbath day. It was NOT at a time when it was"dawning" toward the first day of the week. And it was NOT at the rising of the sun either. It WAS the first day of the week (Sunday), "EARLY, while it was yet dark." On this 2nd visit “the other Mary” was not with her,nor was any other women with her. On this visit, Mary Magdalene was alone.Immediately she RUNS to find Peter to tell him the bad news which leads us to her 3rd visit.

John 20:2-182) Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon
Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith
unto them,
They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and
we know not where they have laid him. 3) Peter therefore went
forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.4) So
they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter,
and came first to the sepulchre. 5) And he stooping down, and
looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. 6) Then
cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre,
and seeth the linen clothes lie, 7) And the napkin, that was about
his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in
a place by itself. 8) Then went in also that other disciple, which
came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9) For as yet
they knew not (they did not “understand”) the scripture,
that he must rise again from the dead. 10) Then the disciples went away
again unto their own home.11) But Mary stood without at the
sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked
into the sepulchre, 12) And seeth two angels in white SITTING,
the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body
of Jesus had lain.

Mary followed Peter and the other disciple to the sepulchre.
Peter and the other disciple went in, saw only the grave clothes (no angels),
and then left.
But Mary stayed at the sepulchre, weeping. Then for the first
time, she looks inside. When she looks inside the sepulchre she sees TWO ANGELS inside. This 3rd visit is the first time she has seen any angels. And they spoke to Mary. And notice what they said…

13) And they say unto her, “Woman, why weepest thou?”
She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and
I know not where they have laid him. 14) And when she had
thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and
knew not that it was Jesus. 15) Jesus saith unto her, Woman,
why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be
thee gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him
hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16)
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto
him Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

This is the first time Jesus is seen after his resurrection,
and Mary Magdalene is
the one who saw him first (Mk.16:9).

17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet
ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I
ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your
God. 18) Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she
had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto
her.

Jesus was the firstfruits from the dead and as such could not
touch anyone in order to be “clean” when he presented himself as the
firstfruits from the dead at the “wave offering.” The “wave offering” was always done on the day after the weekly sabbath during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. (Lev.23:10,11).It was Sunday, early, while it was yet dark.After Peter and the other disciple left the sepulchre, Mary stayed behind. Weeping, she looked in and saw 2 Angels inside. They did not tell her"Jesus was risen," but rather asked "why are you weeping?" She then turns around and sees Jesus. Then she returns AGAIN to the disciples and tells them what happened. This however, was a DIFFERENT story. It didn’t matter, they AGAIN did not believe her. Mary is now in the company of the disciples as the morning draws near. This was Mary Magdalene's 3rd Visit to the Sepulchre, and it is only recorded in John 20.Mary Magdalene’s 4th Visit to the sepulchre is the most popular. It is found in ALL the Gospels except John. After Mary’s message fell on deafears AGAIN, the only response was by the women, who were now gathering their spices and ointments together as planned, as the morning was now approaching. When ready, all the other women (AND Mary Magdalene) then left for the sepulchre intending to anoint Jesus’ body. Mary went with the women knowing that the women were about to find that Jesus’ body is not there. The time of this last visit is recorded in Mark and Luke.

Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of
the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the
sun.Luke 24:1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices
which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Mark 16:1 tells us that among the women present were “Mary
Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome.” Luke 24:10 tells us
that “Joanna, and other women” were also present on this visit.When they
arrived, they found that the stone was rolled away, just as Mary Magdalene had no doubt told them earlier (Mark 16:3-4, Luke 24:2).Then they entered the sepulchre still expecting to find Jesus’ body. However, Jesus’ body was not there (Luke 24:3).
Instead they saw “a young man SITTING on the right side,
clothed in a long white garment, and they were affrighted.” (Mark 16:5)They saw ONE ANGEL and he was SITTING, INSIDE the sepulchre. This angel said…

Mark 16:6-86) And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted:
Ye seeke Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is
not here: behold the place where they laid him.7) But go your way,
tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. 8) And they went out quickly

This is where we meet up again with the record in Matthew which
says what Mark just said.

Matthew 28:5-75) And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which
was crucified.6) He is not here: for he is risen, as he said.
Come, see the place where the Lord lay.7) And go quickly, and tell
his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he
goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I
have told you. These two records are recording details of the exact same time
and place.
Notice what the angel said in Mark compared to Matthew…

Mark – Be not affrightedMatthew – Fear not yeMark –
Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucifiedMatthew – for I
know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucifiedMark – he is risen; he is
not hereMatthew – He is not here: for he is risen as he
saidMark – behold the place where they laid himMatthew - Come, see
the place where the Lord layMark – But go your wayMatthew – And
go quicklyMark – tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth
before you into GalileeMatthew – and tell his disciples that he is
risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into GalileeMark
– there shall ye see him, as he said unto youMatthew – there shall ye
see him: lo, I have told you

Clearly this is the same identical incident. Almost word for
word. So the women leave the sepulchre, and there are a lot of these women – 6 or 7 maybe more.
They have just seen an angel SITTING in the sepulchre and no
dead body. Luke says they were “perplexed”. Then this happens...

Luke 24:4-84) And it came to pass, as they were much
perplexed thereabout, behold, two men STOOD by them in shining garments:

The women were “perplexed” (some synonyms are “puzzled,
bewildered, confused”). As a result, after exiting the sepulchre, they
hung around the sepulchre long enough for TWO MORE angels to show up and reiterate what the other angel had told them. These TWO angels were outside the sepulchre and they were STANDING (not sitting).

5) And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to
the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among
the dead?6) He is not here, but is risen: remember how he
spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,7) Saying, The Son of
man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be
crucified, and the third day rise again.8) And they remembered his
words, Now, having been told what the situation was, once by an angel
sitting inside the sepulchre, and then a second time outside the sepulchre by
two angels that were standing by them, as they are leaving, THIS HAPPENS…

Matthew 28:8-108) And they departed quickly from the
sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his
disciples word.9) And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met
them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet,
and worshipped him.10) Then said Jesus unto them, Be not
afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there
shall they see me.

Luke 24:9-12 then says that they returned and told all this to
the 11 and to all the rest, but again they didn’t believe. However, after
considering all the events of the last few hours, Peter gets up and RUNS again to the sepulchre – his second visit – while two others depart for Emmaus.This is the famous “sunrise” visit where ALL the women go to the sepulchre.
Here THEY ALL meet Jesus after he is risen. Unlike Mary's earlier visit when Jesus said not to touch her, here Jesus has already presented himself as the firstruits offering from the dead at the Wave Offering at the temple so there is no problem with all the women holding him. This was Mary Magdalene’s 4th Visit in the last 12 hours, and the second time that she saw Jesus after his
resurrection.What about the soldiers? At the same time that the women were leaving the sepulchre, some of the Soldiers were entering the city, looking for their employers to tell them what had happened.

Matthew 28:11-1511) Now when they were going, behold,
some of the watch came into the city, and showed unto the chief
priests all the things that were done. 12) And when they were
assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large
money unto the soldiers, 13) Saying, Say ye, His disciples came
by night, and stole him away while we slept. 14) And if this come to
the governor’s ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
15) So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and
this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

The Bible does not say how long the soldiers remained at the
tomb after the earthquake and after the stone was moved away. And none of the other records give any account of the women or anyone else that
visited the sepulchre that night, mentioning the soldiers at all, until
here in verse 11 of Matthew 28, when they began to straggle into to town, looking for their employer, to get paid.

Toto

Judge - could you please fix the formatting? Please?

judge

sorry 'bout that.
Whew I know there must be an easy way to do it...but I seem to have done it the long way. There still seem to be acouple of problems but they aren't there when I edit it?? wierd.

Amlodhi

Hi judge,

I've outlined the basics of this harmonization below and then followed with what I see as a few of the difficulties involved. I will be interested in your response.

Matt. 28:1 Mary's 1st visit. Looks & leaves. Stone in place.

Matt 28: 2-4 Earthquake moves stone.

Matt 28:5-6 Mary's 4th visit starts abruptly.

Matt. 28:8 Run to tell disciples.

Matt. 28:9 Meet Jesus on way.


Mk. 16:1 Mary Magdalene & others had bought spices to annoint Jesus.

Mk 16:2 Mary's 4th visit.

Mk. 16:3 Who will roll away stone?

Mk. 16:4 Looked and saw stone rolled away.

Mk. 16:8 Ran & said nothing to any man. [man - Gr. oudeis, oudemia, ouden > not even one (man, woman or thing), none, not any at all, naught]

Mk. 16:9 Review to Mary's 2nd visit.


Lk. 24:1 Mary's 4th visit.

Lk. 24:9 Went and told all things to the eleven and to all the rest.

Lk. 24:12 Peter runs to tomb, looks in, sees linen clothes.


Jn. 20:1 Mary's 2nd visit.

Jn. 20:2 Runs and tells Peter and John.

Jn. 20:3-4 Peter and John run to tomb.

Jn. 20:5 John looks in and sees linen clothes.

Jn. 20:6 Peter goes into tomb and sees linen clothes.

Jn. 20:10 Peter and John leave.

Jn. 20:11-17 Mary stays behind, sees Jesus.

Jn. 20:18 Mary goes and tell disciples.

Additionally:

Matt. 27:59-60 Joseph wraps body in linen, lays it in tomb and seals tomb with stone.

Mk 15:46 Joseph wraps body in linen, lays it in tomb and seals tomb with stone.

Lk. 23:53-56 Joseph wraps body in linen on preparation day, women went also and watched and then they returned, prepared spices, then rested on sabbath.

Jn. 19:39-40 Nicodemus was with Joseph, brought a hundred pounds of spices, they wrapped the body with the spices in the manner of the Jews for burial.


Difficulties:

1) According to this harmonization, Matt. 16:8 and Lk. 24:9 both refer to Mary's (etal) 4th visit. Yet Matthew says they said nothing to anyone, while Luke says they went and told the eleven and all the rest.

.................................................. ..................................................

2) Mk. 16:1 Mary Magdalene & others had bought spices and were going to the tomb to annoint Jesus. Now, according to this harmonization, this is Mary's 4th visit to the tomb. So:

2a) She's going to the tomb with the other women carrying spices to annoint Jesus when she already knows that the body isn't there?

2b) Mk. 16:3 Who will roll away stone? Along with the fact of (2a) "they" are discussing "who will roll the stone away" while Mary already knows the stone has been moved? You say that, here, Mary answers and tells them that the stone has been moved. But why wouldn't Mary have told them to begin with before they started lugging all those spices out there?

.................................................. ...............................................

3) Matt. starts Mary's 4th visit abruptly and with no prologue at verse 5. Since the 4th visit was the spice bringing visit, Matthew, Mark and Luke all make reference to the women bringing spices to annoint Jesus. John is the only gospel that makes no mention of this spice bringing visit.

Coincidentally, Matt, Mk. and Luke, who reference the 4th (spice) visit, make no reference to spices being applied at the time of burial. John, on the other hand, who reports that 100 pounds of spices were placed with the body inside the linen wrap, either coincidentally doesn't report or knows nothing about a 4th visit to apply spices to the body.

.................................................. ...............................................

4) This harmonization requires that Mary's 4th visit in Matthew begin abruptly (and with no prologue) at verse 5. Did several pages get lost somewhere? If verse 5 is intended to begin a later and separate visit, then Matthew begins this story with, "And the angel answered and said". Answered who?

If Matthew's account is to have any continuity at all, verse 5 must necessarily refer back to verse 1. Thus verse 1 would, more reasonably, also refer to the 4th visit and the syntax of the first sentence would more likely be that "it began to be toward dawn of the first day of the week", rather than "dawning" toward.

.................................................. ..............................................

5) Less important, but there, is that this harmonization has Peter entering the tomb and seeing the linen clothes on his first visit (Jn), and then looking into the tomb and seeing the linen clothes on his second visit (Lk). How awkward.

.................................................. ...............................................

There are more difficulties but I'll leave it at this for now. The point is this: Anyone can harmonize any apparently conflicting accounts (just listen to my grandchildren's explanations of their activities sometime). But harmonization attempts such as this simply ignore basic common sense, rules of syntax, rules of pronoun usage, the fact that the surrounding context of each individual account tends to support that account only and basically makes the authors of these accounts appear to be incompetent to convey the simplest of ideas through the use of their language.

This is why some of us find it much more reasonable to think that people back then were pretty much like people are now and these are individual accounts written by individual people and therefore, no surprise, not entirely accurate or trustworthy.

Namaste'

Amlodhi

judge

Thanks for the reply.
You may be right it will take a liitle while to go through and I will be away from this board fro a little while anyway.
Some of the things you mention re:details realy need a good look at the original versions (which I believe is the peshitta...and this can be a little ..um ...freer than greek or english I believe)

I tend to the view that some "contradictions" are real ...and others are imagined, but the post resurrection events do appear to be very difficult if not impossible to reconclie. But I'm not presently convinced they can't be.
Anyway thasnks for the reply...hopefully I wont be too long