Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 10-10-2012, 07:58 AM

But if there is no evidence of an actual Jewish Christianity that would have been related to a Peter sect, and the religion all developed under the Constantinian empire, then how and when is it possible that it all moved from "Peterism" to "Paulism" when there is no evidence of it either? Especially since all the apologists lump all the texts together as one canon, with no hint of Acts having been two combined into one......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

One thing is certain, early on the Jerusalem 'christianity' of 'Peter' was Jewish in nature, observant of the Jewish Sabbath and Feast Days, and free to continue the practice of circumcision, and to abstain from foods proscribed by Jewish Scripture as their individual conscience dictated.
With the rise of 'Paulinianism' and the anti-Jewish propaganda that is presented within the 'Pauline' epistles, the 'Petrine' faction first became demeaned and demoted, then stigmatized, then ostracized, then persecuted, and finally ruthlessly hunted down and executed wholesale for the 'heresy' of continuing to engage in formerly acceptable 'Jewish' religious practices.

Duvduv · 10-10-2012, 08:00 AM

Here we go again, with AA offering a "may very well have been" hypothesis with no actual evidence for this, which is quite remarkable considering how strongly AA is always demanding "evidence" from everyone....

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

It appears to me that Acts was composed first, with Peter as the foremost spokesperson for the new faith (understanding that 'Peter' here is not an individual but the voice of a faction of a theological movement.)
The latter 'Paulinians' that took over control of the church, and hence the texts, were easily able to introduce the changes that elevated 'Paul' (themselves) while demeaning and shoving 'Peter' (the others 'Judaizers') into obscurity.

I would expect that this took place over a period of time and that some who read the material would have noticed the takeover, but then again most christians of that time were from the lower classes of society and illiterate, knowing only what they were told.
And those that were wealthy and educated would know 'which way the wind was blowing' and certainly be of the stronger emerging 'Pauliniast' persuasion, that eventually thought the best way to deal with these 'Petrine' christian 'Judaisers' was to ostracize them, see that they were stripped of their property, and their rights as citizens, and finally to have them rounded up and executed for continuing their heretical 'Judaizing' religious practices.
Which brings us up to the times and organized religious pogroms of The Holy Roman Empire.

I like your analogies of Acts.

"Paul" first persecuted those who followed the teachings of "Peter".

Later "Paul" started to preach the teachings of "Peter".

Peter represents the early theology--the early Jesus cult.

Now, who was "PAUL".

"PAUL" represents the Roman Empire.

In Acts--Paul was a Roman citizen.

Acts 22:27 KJV

From supposed 2nd century writings there was persecution of Christians by the Romans and the very Romans did accept the very Jesus story some time later in the 4th century under Constantine.

Constantine the Rman Emperor also SAW a light at Midday like "PAUL" the Roman.

Paul may very well be Constantine.

Life of Constantine 1.28

Acts of the Apostles 26

Quote:

13 At midday , O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me

steve_bnk · 10-10-2012, 09:13 AM

'..The mythicist belief is strongly associated with the growing movement of atheism in the western world. While atheism is seemingly plausible, mythicism is seemingly preposterous, and those who care for a popular knowledge of realistic history may be concerned about the rising tide of preposterous history..'

What movement?

ApostateAbe · 10-10-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

'..The mythicist belief is strongly associated with the growing movement of atheism in the western world. While atheism is seemingly plausible, mythicism is seemingly preposterous, and those who care for a popular knowledge of realistic history may be concerned about the rising tide of preposterous history..'

What movement?

The atheism movement.

aa5874 · 10-10-2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Here we go again, with AA offering a "may very well have been" hypothesis with no actual evidence for this, which is quite remarkable considering how strongly AA is always demanding "evidence" from everyone....

You are NOT credible.

You have actually posted and responded to the very EVIDENCE that I presented when I claimed Paul may, may, may, very well be Constantine.

Why can't you even repeat what I write??

Just look at the evidence. Let the records show that I presented "Acts" 26.13 and the "Life of Constantine 1.28"

Constantine and Saul/Paul both SAW a light in the heavens above the sun at MIDDAY while travelling with other people who also SAW the light.

Paul MAY very well be Constantine.

Life of Constantine 1.28

Quote:

He said that about noon, when the day was already beginning to decline, he saw with his own eyes the trophy of a cross of light in the heavens, above the sun, and bearing the inscription, Conquer by this... At this sight he himself was struck with amazement, and his whole army also, which followed him on this expedition.....

Acts of the Apostles 26

Quote:

13 At midday , O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me

steve_bnk · 10-10-2012, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

'..The mythicist belief is strongly associated with the growing movement of atheism in the western world. While atheism is seemingly plausible, mythicism is seemingly preposterous, and those who care for a popular knowledge of realistic history may be concerned about the rising tide of preposterous history..'

What movement?

The atheism movement.

What you appeared to have done is cobble together something from the forum threads. it is almost embarrasing to read, on a level put forth by Creationists and biblical litralists. Such a topic to done properly would require an extended work with references.

Interpreting Paul in the NT is not a proof or disporf of anything.

Yet again, atheism is not a movement, it has no ideology or position other than a rejection of theism.

I expect your claim to a growing movement of atheists embracing MJ will appear on Christian sites as soem kind of proof of a conspiracy.

Atheism is plausible and MJ is not is a silly statement. And, the MJ/HJ debate has gone on here for years, there is no coorborarting evidence to prove the existence of an HJ. There are no Roman records.

If there were it would be published as mainstearm history and the Christians would have made their HJ case.

The HJ vs MJ debate is a matter of historical enquirey no different than Egyptian, Mayan, or Greek studies.

ApostateAbe · 10-10-2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The atheism movement.

What you appeared to have done is cobble together something from the forum threads. it is almost embarrasing to read, on a level put forth by Creationists and biblical litralists. Such a topic to done properly would require an extended work with references.

Interpreting Paul in the NT is not a proof or disporf of anything.

Yet again, atheism is not a movement, it has no ideology or position other than a rejection of theism.

I expect your claim to a growing movement of atheists embracing MJ will appear on Christian sites as soem kind of proof of a conspiracy.

Atheism is plausible and MJ is not is a silly statement. And, the MJ/HJ debate has gone on here for years, there is no coorborarting evidence to prove the existence of an HJ. There are no Roman records.

If there were it would be published as mainstearm history and the Christians would have made their HJ case.

The HJ vs MJ debate is a matter of historical enquirey no different than Egyptian, Mayan, or Greek studies.

Sorry, what's that thing that looks like an atheism movement?

steve_bnk · 10-10-2012, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

What you appeared to have done is cobble together something from the forum threads. it is almost embarrasing to read, on a level put forth by Creationists and biblical litralists. Such a topic to done properly would require an extended work with references.

Interpreting Paul in the NT is not a proof or disporf of anything.

Yet again, atheism is not a movement, it has no ideology or position other than a rejection of theism.

I expect your claim to a growing movement of atheists embracing MJ will appear on Christian sites as soem kind of proof of a conspiracy.

Atheism is plausible and MJ is not is a silly statement. And, the MJ/HJ debate has gone on here for years, there is no coorborarting evidence to prove the existence of an HJ. There are no Roman records.

If there were it would be published as mainstearm history and the Christians would have made their HJ case.

The HJ vs MJ debate is a matter of historical enquirey no different than Egyptian, Mayan, or Greek studies.

Sorry, what's that thing that looks like an atheism movement?

You tell me, from your site.

'..The mythicist belief is strongly associated with the growing movement of atheism in the western world. While atheism is seemingly plausible, mythicism is seemingly preposterous, and those who care for a popular knowledge of realistic history may be concerned about the rising tide of preposterous history..'

Do you have surveys or polls to support that?

ApostateAbe · 10-10-2012, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Sorry, what's that thing that looks like an atheism movement?

You tell me, from your site.

'..The mythicist belief is strongly associated with the growing movement of atheism in the western world. While atheism is seemingly plausible, mythicism is seemingly preposterous, and those who care for a popular knowledge of realistic history may be concerned about the rising tide of preposterous history..'

Do you have surveys or polls to support that?

Sure, see this link: http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated...-the-rise.aspx

steve_bnk · 10-10-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

You tell me, from your site.

'..The mythicist belief is strongly associated with the growing movement of atheism in the western world. While atheism is seemingly plausible, mythicism is seemingly preposterous, and those who care for a popular knowledge of realistic history may be concerned about the rising tide of preposterous history..'

Do you have surveys or polls to support that?

Sure, see this link: http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated...-the-rise.aspx

Again association between growth of atheism and an MJ vs HJ? And the poll addresses lack of religion as meaningful to people, not atheism alone. From the graph, atheism is actually staying level.

'...Beliefs and Practices

In terms of their religious beliefs and practices, the unaffiliated are a diverse group, and far from uniformly secular. Just 5% say they attend worship services on a weekly basis. But one-third of the unaffiliated say religion is at least somewhat important in their lives. Two-thirds believe in God (though less than half say they are absolutely certain of God’s existence). And although a substantial minority of the unaffiliated consider themselves neither religious nor spiritual (42%), the majority describe themselves either as a religious person (18%) or as spiritual but not religious (37%)...'

Can you quote secifics from the link that makes your asserttions. Your opening premise alone is bogus.

''..The mythicist belief is strongly associated with the growing movement of atheism in the western world. While atheism is seemingly plausible, mythicism is seemingly preposterous, and those who care for a popular knowledge of realistic history may be concerned about the rising tide of preposterous history..'

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10-10-2012, 09:13 AM	#43
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	'..The mythicist belief is strongly associated with the growing movement of atheism in the western world. While atheism is seemingly plausible, mythicism is seemingly preposterous, and those who care for a popular knowledge of realistic history may be concerned about the rising tide of preposterous history..' What movement?

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