Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 08-26-2011, 09:22 AM

Getting back to the O.P., the only really additional argument I have seen that John is the fourth gospel is the argument that only in the gospels of Luke and John does Jesus talk about sending the Holy Ghost later. However, this is by no means a strong argument.

Luke:

Quote:

12.11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or what you are to say; 12.12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

John (Douay-Rheims Bible) 14:

Quote:

15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while: and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. 20 In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it, that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but the Father's who sent me.
25 These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you. 26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

John 15.

Quote:

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. 27 And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning.

16. 1 THESE things have I spoken to you, that you may not be scandalized. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you, will think that he doth a service to God. 3 And these things will they do to you; because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the hour shall come, you may remember that I told you of them.

5 But I told you not these things from the beginning, because I was with you. And now I go to him that sent me, and none of you asketh me: Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. 9 Of sin: because they believed not in me. 10 And of justice: because I go to the Father; and you shall see me no longer. 11 And of judgment: because the prince of this world is already judged.

12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

The connection seems slight between the passage in Luke and the passages in John, but there is definitely a connection.

The line in John 16.2 (They will put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you, will think that he doth a service to God) matches closely the line in Luke 12.11 (And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or what you are to say; )

There seems to be just as much chance that Luke copied John or some text related to John, as that John copied and expanded Luke, so this cannot really used as an argument for John being written after Luke.

The concept of the Paraclete is quite fuzzy in John. It seems to be a Holy Ghost, a Spirit of Truth, another teacher/counselor like Jesus, or even Jesus himself talking about his previous incarnation. Luke does not use the term paraclete (legal advocate or helper), which is odd because he is talking about a trial situation, but uses the term "Holy Ghost" as a magical voice/spirit that will whisper to the Christian the right answers at their trials.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

J-D · 08-26-2011, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

A STORY LINE NEEDS a reliable chronology

LOTS OF STORY LINES HAVE NO RELIABLE CHRONOLOGY.

Like Romulus and Remus. Like Marcion's Phantom. Like Homer's Achilles. Like the "multitude" of MYTH Fables of antiquity about Gods and Sons of Gods. Like gMatthew, gMark, gLuke, gJohn, Acts of the Apostles, and ALL the Pauline writings including Hebrews, the general epistles and Revelation. And there are hundreds more.

Why would a story with NO RELIABLE chronology about a Child of a Ghost and the Creator of heaven and earth should be expected to have a story line that would lead us to the actual History of such a character?

You SPURT out logical fallacies if you assert that a story line is likely to represent actual events because there are a "lots of story lines that have no reliable chronology".

YOU SAID THAT A STORY LINE NEEDS A RELIABLE CHRONOLOGY. THAT IS NOT TRUE.

I SAID THAT LOTS OF STORY LINES HAVE NO RELIABLE CHRONOLOGY. THAT IS TRUE.

IF WHAT YOU MEANT WAS NOT WHAT YOU SAID, THAT IS NOT MY FAULT.

mountainman · 08-26-2011, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

The concept of the Paraclete is quite fuzzy in John. It seems to be a Holy Ghost, a Spirit of Truth, another teacher/counselor like Jesus, or even Jesus himself talking about his previous incarnation. Luke does not use the term paraclete (legal advocate or helper), which is odd because he is talking about a trial situation, but uses the term "Holy Ghost" as a magical voice/spirit that will whisper to the Christian the right answers at their trials.

Hi Philosopher Jay,

This paraclete is an interesting term, also perhaps used by Mani and/or the Manichaeans at some stage. It apparently was used in common Greek by Demosthenes (from the WIKI page)

From WIKI

Quote:

"Paraclete" in Christianity[edit] New TestamentIn the New Testament the word seems to appear only in Johannine writings. 'Paraclete' appears in the New Testament in the Gospel of John (14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7) where it may be translated in English as "counselor", "helper", encourager, advocate, or "comforter".[8] The early church identified the Paraclete as the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5,1:8,2:4,2:38) and Christians continue to use Paraclete as a title for the Spirit of God. In the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 5 v. 4 Jesus Christ uses the verb παρακληθήσονται, paraclethesontai, traditionally interpreted to signify "to be refreshed, encouraged, or comforted". The text may also be translated as vocative as well as the traditional nominative[1]. Then the meaning of 'paraclethesontai', also informative of the meaning of the name, or noun Paraclete, implicates 'are going to summon' or 'will be breaking off'... The Paraclete may thus mean 'the summoner' or 'the one, who, or that which makes free'[9]

etc

The paraclete gospel comes last?

Best wishes

Pete

aa5874 · 08-26-2011, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

...Yes, one could argue that the historical setting in which the gospel JC storyline has been set down is immaterial - it's nothing more than the pinning of the tail on that donkey. Again, one can leave it at that - or one can use what one has - the gospel writers have set down a historical setting for their pseudo-historical JC - and see where that can take one....

Why don't you leave it at that---"it is nothing more than the pinning of the tail to that donkey"?

I have left the Gospels exactly as a I found them. They are documents of multiple VERSIONS of Myth fables.

Once you admit that it could be argued that that the JC storyline is immaterial then attempting to find history of the pseudo JC will likely be FUTILE or faith based.

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