Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 01-30-2008, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

In the 2nd century the Roman historian Tacticus (Annals, 15.44) reference both the emperor Nero, Pontius Pilate, Tiberius and a certain person he calls Christus.

Somewhere between the fourth and the fifteenth century
an interpolator added the last reference to Tacitus in an
effort to stave off the consistent exploration of the very
real possibility that the person called Christus J was an
invented Saviour-Healer, promoted by Constantine, to
explicitly compete with, and destroy, the extant Saviour-
Healer network of cults, centered around Asclepius/ Imhotep.

The new god was Big Business because He was Tax-Exempt.
The new god was New Testament Technology, because the
Boss mastered literature control and burnt the Opposition.
The Boss built the new god new BASILICAS.
He destroyed the ancient temples.
He executed the head priests.
He set clear examples.
He prohibited sacrifice in the old temples.
The people were trapped by a despot.
He milked them dry.

And it was this in this despotic political environment
that future objective scholars, who see both sides of
the moebius papyri of the fourth century, will identify
the authorship of the non canonical acts.

Syriac Acts of Philip: Is Philip annoying? - Fourth Century Humour at its best
TAOPATTA: The Acts of Peter and the (11, 12 or was it 13?) Apostles
The Acts of Andrew and Matthew: Casting lots for world dominion.
The Acts of Peter and Andrew - Aggressive wizards, camels, needles.
The Acts of Thomas: Judas refuses Jesus' commands; Jesus sells him into slavery
The Act of Peter: Peter forgets to heal his own daughter.

If you want to understand these above six non-canonical acts,
put yourself in the shoes of the ancient Hellenic culture which
has been penned in in their cities by savage taxation backed by
total and absolute military supremacy. The sword was not an option.

Thus the pen was unsheathed.
These texts are anti-christian polemic.
They were written by anti-christian parodists.
As a last resort to raise their voices against the
supreme top-down-emperor cult which had made
them homeless, pushing thousands, and later
tens of thousands of the eastern Hellenic therapeutae
out into the recluses and monasteries established
from the times the persecutions started c.324 CE,
by the ascetic Pachomius, and others, in Egypt.

Pachomius is thought related to the Nag Hammadi
codices. In the next century, translating the coptic
to Latin, (was it) Jerome or Augustine, that made
him "christian" whereas in fact he was an ascetic.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

In other words it is all a myth.

aa5874 · 01-30-2008, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

What do you expect to be found in such a tomb?
Come on now don't be shy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

He is Risen.

Well, you have finally admitted that Jesus was not actually human, perhaps a ghost or some unreal entity.

He is risen=He is myth.

Sheshbazzar · 01-30-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

So is your argument the following?

Jesus Christ = myth
Apostle Paul=myth
Christians circa first century to fourth century = myth
Perscution of early christian believers = myth :huh:

While awaiting Mountanman's reply;
The real truth is not quite that simple, using the word "myth" serves as a form of "shorthand" to describe the Chrestian's wildly inflated claims about their icon.
Briefly;
"Jesus" "Christ", more correctly "Jesus" THE "christ" evolved from a pre-christian Jewish messianic hope and long expectation.
The "watchword" of 2 Maccabees 13:9-14 formed the "core" around which subsequent Jewish messianic "urban legends" (midrash) centered following common Jewish practices, as a way of examining all possibilities.
There would have no been intent to deceive anyone, or to make anyone believe that these midrasim were factual or to be taken as being historical.
"YAHshua" or "The Help of YAH" became (or rather, CONTINUED to be) a "WATCHWORD" to Jewish messianic expectants, and standing as a Jewish "SHIBBOLETH" guarding against the impositions of Hellenism upon Jewish religion, culture, and their language.
Not so much a myth, but an expression of a nationalistic hope, and a desire for Jewish culture not to be overwhelmed and submerged under that huge wave of Hellenism and all of its attendant religious syncretism.

"Paul", an early Jewish messianic traveling preacher, who traveled to far flung Jewish synagogues, preaching the "Watchword" of the Jewish messianic hope. Not myth, but also not at all as what is presented in the "Christian" New Testament where his work, his good name and his fame, were "borrowed" to compose the pseudonymous "Pauline Epistles" that eventually became the horse that "Christianity" stole and saddled up with all of their pagan ideas, and rode off on their long campaign of plunder and murder.
("seq'ar ha'sooce le't'shua"

Really funny how these things sometimes work out

)
A horse is a horse of course, of course, unless of course, the horse is the famous.........."hey sooce!"

The Horse and his rider both get tossed! as was written, surely shall it be done. (heh heh, just having a little fun.

)

"Christians" of the first century, more correctly "Chrestani", the term employed by the pagan initiates of several inter-related Hellenic "Mystery cults". Definitely not mythical, fanatically "religious" and insurrectionist, but also definately not the "Christians" as the term had evolved by the third century into identifying that group that were using a hi-jacked form of the original Jewish messianic national hope.

Headache · 01-30-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Jesus was depicted as a larger than life superhero..

And yet, such a larger than life superhero is non-existent except from inside one particular book. Don't you find that strange?

If this character was such a figure with such an impact as claimed, there would have been thousands upon thousands who would have witnessed him and his work and there would have been tons and tons of stories, yet no such thing exists.

schilling.klaus · 01-30-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

So is your argument the following?

Jesus Christ = myth

sure

Quote:

Apostle Paul=myth

no, but urban legend

Quote:

Christians circa first century to fourth century = myth

no, but bible-based christianity before that time
is an urban legend

Quote:

Perscution of early christian believers = myth

no, it's an urban legend

Klaus Schilling

Solitary Man · 01-30-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headache

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Jesus was depicted as a larger than life superhero..

And yet, such a larger than life superhero is non-existent except from inside one particular book. Don't you find that strange?

If this character was such a figure with such an impact as claimed, there would have been thousands upon thousands who would have witnessed him and his work and there would have been tons and tons of stories, yet no such thing exists.

And if he was hardly as large as life as some made him out to be, but instead a backwater Galilean preacher, what evidence should we have expected?

Headache · 01-30-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headache

And yet, such a larger than life superhero is non-existent except from inside one particular book. Don't you find that strange?

If this character was such a figure with such an impact as claimed, there would have been thousands upon thousands who would have witnessed him and his work and there would have been tons and tons of stories, yet no such thing exists.

And if he was hardly as large as life as some made him out to be, but instead a backwater Galilean preacher, what evidence should we have expected?

Well, if the bible is anything to go by, it seems to indicate that he was a known figure, that thousands of people knew of his work and his miracles. Rising people from the dead, curing the sick and so forth. Yet, the real world is silent when it comes to this man, totally silent. The only screams to be heard are muffled whispers from a book shown to be choke full of errors and absurdities. And when trying to apply what is said by this character, nothing happens. You are dealing with a myth and not reality. Why is that so hard for you to accept? What will happen to you if you do accept this? Why is it so hard to admit that the bible is collection of mythical stories and not real life history?

Amaleq13 · 01-30-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headache

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

And if he was hardly as large as life as some made him out to be, but instead a backwater Galilean preacher, what evidence should we have expected?

Well, if the bible is anything to go by, it seems to indicate that he was a known figure, that thousands of people knew of his work and his miracles. Rising people from the dead, curing the sick and so forth.

You are ignoring the question here since it clearly assumes reality to be something other than what is described in the stories.

Quote:

Yet, the real world is silent when it comes to this man, totally silent.

And that, IMV, is precisely what one should expect given the assumptions of the question you didn't answer.

Quote:

You are dealing with a myth and not reality. Why is that so hard for you to accept? What will happen to you if you do accept this? Why is it so hard to admit that the bible is collection of mythical stories and not real life history?

You don't appear to be following the point of the question at all. :huh:

Solitary Man · 01-30-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headache

You are dealing with a myth and not reality. Why is that so hard for you to accept? What will happen to you if you do accept this? Why is it so hard to admit that the bible is collection of mythical stories and not real life history?

You don't appear to be following the point of the question at all. :huh:

Not only that, but he apparently isn't following the conversations here either. I've years ago accepted the Bible is not real life history. But I've moved on from the naive assumptions that it's all "myth" and now deal with what the Bible actually is. Why is it so hard for some people to grasp it?

jeffevnz · 01-30-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffevnz

Chose "maybe" because the picture is way too murky for us to know.

If you'd forced us to choose yes or no, with the loose criteria that there was a preacher named Jesus, on whom the gospels are somehow based, who founded Christianity; I would have chosen yes. Not a strong yes, but I'd bet money such a person existed, based on 1) numerous embarassing details in and about the Gospels, and 2) Ockham's razor, in view of the existence of Christianity*.

*It's been quite common, throughout history, including some recent, well-documented examples, for cults to be founded by a single, charismatic leader. I'm not aware of any documented cases of cults purporting to have been started by such a leader, who turns out to have been fictional.

What about the various religions based on Baal, Marduk, Isis, Horus, Zeus, Apollo, and a host of other so-called gods of ancient times. All were fictional.

Obviously. What are you getting at?

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