dado

the DSS has neither "lion" nor "pierced". it has a non-existant word that more or less splits the difference between the two. the easist inference is that "lion" is intended because it requires only a small calligraphic error - or even just a drop or smudge of ink - to get from the DSS word to lion - but it takes the inclusion of an extra multistroke letter to get from "pierced" to the DSS word.

but...that doesn't exactly constitute unequivocal evidence. i'm afraid we're just going to have to wait for the next horde of scrolls to be unearthed.

JoeWallack

JW:
Overall, I think Rabbi Singer has written the best article on the subject:

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/like-a-lion.html

and of particlular interest is his observation that "pierced" as a translation/mistranslation probably did not exist yet in the first century:

"It must be noted that the authors of the New Testament were not responsible for inserting the word “pierced� into the text of Psalm 22:17. This verse was undoubtedly tampered with years after the Christian canon was completed. Bear in mind, during the latter half of the first century, when the New Testament writers were compiling their Greek manuscripts, Psalm 22:17 was still in pristine condition; thus, when the authors of the New Testament read this verse, they found nothing in the phrase “like a lion they are at my hands and my feet� that would advance their teachings. As a result, Psalm 22:17 is never quoted in the New Testament. Missionaries, who insist that the Christian translation of this verse reflects the original words of King David, must wonder why there was not one New Testament author who deemed this supposed allusion to the crucifixion worthy of being mentioned in his writings."

Gerald Sigal has written an article that addresses the lack of a verb in the related sentence:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq057.html

Sigal writes:

"The correct interpretation of the verse must be based on the elliptical style of this particular psalm. The text should read, in effect: "Like a lion [they are gnawing at] my hands and my feet." Ellipsis (the omission of words) is an apt rhetorical device for a composition in which suffering and agony is described. A person in agony does not usually express his feelings in complete round sentences. Such a person is capable of exclaiming only the most critical words of his thoughts and feelings. In this case: "Like a lion . . . my hands and my feet!" Similarly, in verse 1 we find broken phrases rather than whole sentences: "Far from helping me . . . the words of my roaring."

Examining Psalm 22, we find that verses 17, 21, and 22 express parallel thoughts. In verse 17, the psalmist speaks of "dogs" and "a lion," which are metaphoric representations of his enemies, and in verses 21 and 22 respectively, he beseeches the Almighty to save him "from a dog's paw" and "from a lion's mouth." Thus, in verse 17, where he complains of the lion, the missing words are understood, and it is to be read: "Like a lion [they are gnawing at] my hands and my feet." This is the most plausible interpretation of the text."


Joseph

Proof-texting. Verb. The art of ignoring anything not supporting your conclusion until there's nothing left.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Errors...yguid=68161660

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/abdulreis/myhomepage/

French Prometheus

I don't mean to resurrect an old thread but I came across some interesting information regarding the antiquity of crucifixion.

In the Code of the Assura (i.e. the Code of the Assyrians), crucifixion was the penalty for abortion :

This code was written in the 11th century BCE.

Toto

Crucifying a dead body? This doesn't sound exactly the same as the Roman crucifixion.

Most of those penalties are pretty gruesome.

French Prometheus

Well, a woman who had an abortion was crucified whether she survived her abortion or not. I don't know the technical details of the procedure though. But even during Roman times, there were several methods of crucifixion (I recommend to those who can read French this excellent book about the history and techniques of capital punishment in the world).
Degrading a dead body was very common in the past. It was used as a warning for those who were tempted to follow suit. For instance, many heretics were actually strangled before being burnt at the stake (it was a favor called a retentum). I'm pretty sure not all the people sentenced to be crucified in Ancient Rome were alive when they were nailed or roped to the cross. A rebellious slave or a deserter who died just before being caught were probably crucified all the same.

unknown4

I realize this thread is old, but I figure why open a new one?

I doubt that Psalms 22 was referring to crucifixion, even if the text was "they dug" instead of "like a lion". Since there is a mention of sword and "horns of the unicorn", it seems like if his "hand and foot" (from my understanding it's singular here) got "dug" it would have been by swords, perhaps trying to defend himself (while on the ground, since the passage refers to being "Poured out like water" and "brought to the dust of death") or perhaps some sort of purposeful maiming done.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

The question I have concerns Lamentations 5:12 which says "Princes are hanged up by their hand: the faces of elders were not honoured."

Is this some reference to some form of crucifixion? I've been looking for evidence of ancient crucifixion. I read the Assyrian code, and even though crucify is used, I am thinking it was more like impalment on a stake. Is there any evidence at all of a nailing of body parts to wood as a form of execution when this Psalm was supposedly written? I read almost matter of factly that there was no such thing as crucifixion around 1000 BCE, but I just am not sure about that myself. The interesting thing is, to me, if this passage refers to crucifixion, it seems to imply that the Psalmist didn't die, because it says he was heard from the "horns of the unicorns", and then the passage goes on to portray the Psalmist as praising God for apparently saving him.

Jabu Khan

I want to know how you drive a nail through someones hands and feet without breaking any bones.

Splarnst

I have seen the light! This proves that resurrection is possible!

This thread is alive after more than three years in the grave!

Unbeliever

According to InfoPlease
This, if accurate, is well within the timeframe in which cricifixion took place.

Cheerful Charlie

No, its not true. Not in the least.

CC