aa5874

The Pauline writings are from the 2nd century or later and AFTER Justin so it is likely that that they would contain similar 2nd century stories.

Duvduv

That was not my point. My point was that "Justin" invoked verses from the Tanakh for his Messiah which are not invoked in the epistles. So even if "Justin" never knew the epistles and vice versa one would expect the epistles to invoke those verses too UNLESS the two ideologies emerged from very different places with different views of the Christ EVEN if the epistles were composites. The "Justin" viewed the Christ as the promised Jewish messiah and the Logos, and the epistles did not view the Christ as either.

Now if you insist that the FOUR GOSPELS were part of a canon for Justin, what kind of Biblical canon was it that came AFTER the epistles but knew nothing about them?!

And what kind of Christianity in the world of "Justin" had such hierarchical conformity that all communities read from the gospels (which you believe are the Memoirs) and only the Jewish prophetic texts?

aa5874

Again, your imagination has gone wild. I did NOT claim Justin knew of the FOUR Gospels of a Canon.

Please, please, please!!!! I stated it is WRITTEN that the Memoirs of the Apostles were READ in the Churches on Sundays.

Justin did NOT state he had FOUR Gospels and did NOT state that there was orthodoxy.

In fact, Justin Martyr claimed that so-called Heretics were called Christians even though they Blasphemed the name of Jesus.

Dialogue with Trypho The writings of Justin clearly show that there was NO orthodoxy up to the mid 2nd century and Origen would CORROBORATE Justin Martyr in De Principiis.

The Preface to De Principiis Please, forget about your imagination and actually READ what Justin wrote. There was NO orthodoxy up to the time of Justin. The writings of Justin Martyr are CORROBORATED by the DATED NT manuscripts, Apologetic and Non-Apologetic sources.

The Pauline letters were UNKNOWN up to the mid-2nd century and had ZERO influence on the Jesus stories found in the short-ending gMark, the long-ending gMark, gMatthew and those mentioned in the MEMOIRS of the Apostles in Justin.

Duvduv

No biblical canon including the canonical gospels, but quotes in a second century Dialogue from Luke, Matthew, Mark and John?!
And the heretics who are Christian in name only are not named and described are they? Were they also among those abused and oppressed? Or just those of Justin's sect?!!

And if the Pauline letters were unknown, when did they get written, and were they part of Justin's sect of abused and oppressed Christians who quoted Tanakh verses in relation to Christ that are not found in the epistles that emerged later?!

Justin did not know about the epistles and the later author(s) of the epistles did not know about Justin's Christianity in Rome either.

Duvduv

While waiting for AA's reply to my last posting on this thread I looked through a number of proposed timelines based on the epistles and Acts for the life of the figure of Paul when he was still Saul.

The amount of time he could have possibly been engaged in persecuting Christians is about 2-3 years maximum BEFORE experiencing the conversion. In that brief period there was already a "church" in Jerusalem and lots of other places of people who were in Christ before Paul, plenty of them.

It is utterly amazing how much damage this one man could do in the space of a couple of years at most to flourishing churches that are not named, located or described. Presumably this Saul (who as persecutor is not described with the name Saul in Galatians) started as a trainee and worked his way up to be wreaking havoc for a brief period, maybe a year, as a one-man operation.

If this general story was circulating among believers even in the 4th century it took two different forms when it was consigned to writing in Galatians and in Acts. The way it is presented, one would think that this great Persecutor was a well-trained professional with his own army of persecutors against all those many church communities ALL WITHIN A COUPLE OF YEARS of the crucifixion.

And in all these cases these believers were perfectly good devotees of Christ despite their lack of knowledge of a gospel from a risen Christ, regardless of whether this would be for the purpose of preaching to gentiles. They were in Christ through the gospel of men who ostensibly knew that same Jesus who revealed himself a mere two years later to Saul to preach to the gentiles.

Paul, an apostle —sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Yet those other people in Christ DID receive gospels of human origin, received of man and taught by others. And they were still quite kosher, despite not having received the gospel revealed by the risen Christ.

aa5874

Why ARE you also using your imagination as an historical source?? Justin Martyr did NOT claim he had Gospels according to Luke, Matthew, Mark and John!

Have you forgotten so quickly that Luke, Matthew, Mark and JOHN are FAKE authors??

Justin identified his source of the Jesus story as the Memoirs of the Apostles.

Please, why don't you just read the writings of Justin???

Justin Martyr named some Heretics--the Marcians, the Basilidians, the Saturnilians and others.

Justin Martyr claimed he wrote on behalf of people who were unjustly hated and WANTONLY abused.

Are you implying that most of the Epistles could NOT have been written within a 3 year period???

I have over 15,000 posts on this forum and thousands more on others in only about 7 years which means I could have writen a book of 1000 pages in less that 5 years.

Joseph Smith Published his Mormon Bible at about c 1830 CE this would mean that at around c 1825 CE NO-ONE would have heard of a Mormon Bible.

Except for one problem, the Epistle writings are NOT DATED to any time BEFORE the mid 2nd century and could have been written in the 3rd century based on Paleography.

Duvduv

AA, you didn't answer the context of my question. Was this Justin writer advocating to the emperor on behalf of all sects that allegedly existed or just his own, given the fact that these sects did not all believe the same things about Jesus?

And I wasn't talking about the specific NAMES of the gospels but simply about their stories under whatever names. I was also talking about the fact that both Justin and the author(s) of the epistles knew the same verses from Tanakh but the epistle authors (unlike Justin) chose not to cite ANY verses relevant to the Davidic messiah or Elijah precursor.

I was also noting how the texts seem so much to have been written in a RUSH such that contradictions didn't get reconciled. Not the least of which that there were people who were "good Christians" who received their gospel from MEN unlike Paul in Galatians, yet this does not seem to have been even the slightest disadvantage for anyone who was in Christ before Paul, despite the fact that a revelation from the risen Christ appears to have been far superior than any others (at least according to Galatians).

And the other interesting point is that whether as persecutor or apostle, Paul is portrayed as a successful free-lancer who in Galatians didn't know about a Great Commission from the physical Jesus to all his disciples to preach to the gentiles (whether God fearers or pagsns).

aa5874

Can't you just read "First Apology"?? Justin Martyr claimed he wrote his Apology on behalf of those of all NATIONS who were wrongfully hated and wantonly abused.

Duvduv

Does he specify who those are considering he advocates for Christians and not Hindus or Druids, AA?!

aa5874

What exactly are you arguing about???