gstafleu

Since we seem to be diverting here into a discussion of what "walking on water" stands for, let me throw my pebble into the pond. It means reaching the "yonder shore," which is a metaphor fro reaching knowledge, enlightenment, bodhi, gnosis, whatever. Walking on water, if one can get away with it, is an individualistic way of getting there. Plus, you can get wet. The Buddhists are more practical in this regard, they just take a boat (yana). If you are a friendly, socially inclined kind of person you'll make your boat big (maha), so you have a Mahayana, and others can accompany you. If, on the other hand, you are some sort of pillar saint, then you make your boat a miserly small (hina) one, and you alone reach the other shore in your Hinayana.

So, its time for Jesus to get into the boat.

Gerard Stafleu

andrewcriddle

As well as a discussion of Astrology, Hippolytus in Refutation of All Heresies book IV has a discussion of magical tricks in the Ancient World.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/A...tm#P522_112882

Andrew Criddle

David B

Thanks - interesting

David B

DCHindley

You might find Morton Smith's _Jesus the Magician_, and Hans Dieter Betz's (ed.) _Greek Magical Papyri in Translation_ interesting. Both are available at any good library, or you can get them by ILL.

The former has a long discussion about the perceived difference between a Magos (a true practioner of magical arts) and a Goes (a street magician, trickster, fake), and how those outside of the congregaions of Christian seemed to think Jesus fit into this scheme of things.

The latter has a large number of actual spells, from Greek and Egyptian Demotic papyri, that range from serious to silly.

DCH

Chili

No Gerald, not even close. It does not mean "reaching the yonder shore" but it means to follow a certain path to get to the other shore which indeed means gnosis (or gnosis by any other name) because this path is universal to mankind and the same all over the world because it is native to man. It is known as metamorphosis for which meno-pauze is the period of time it takes to get to the other side. Meno means 'I remain' as in 'I am eternal' wherefore the Universe, for example, cannot be eternal because it lacks "being" (as in "I AM") to be either eternal or temporal.

Your problem may be that you do not know the difference between above and below for which there is not a word in the English language or the distinction would be clear to you.

It is fair to say that to reach the other side we must be born again but the point here is that one cannot just part the water to get there (Billy Graham style, for example) because that would leave us stranded once we get there without a dowry to behold . . . wherefore Mary must be our mother and thus not Magdalene (virgin birth as opposed to non-vergin birth) and this is confirmed by the arrival of the Magi on Jan.6 of which, in turn, the arrival of St. Nicholas is a foreshadow on Dec.6.

So now, for Mary to be our mother the annunciation must be intuit in origen arising from deep within our own One Thousand Year Reign (Reign of God or TOL) instead of from Magdalene in the TOK that was built on a blank slate (the evangelist is actually tugging on our intergity whereby we protect Mary's virginity and so it is in yielding to him that we rape her). Mary is Mahayana and Eve (Magdalene I called her earlier) is Hinayana without a dowry (the dowry is our [individual] surpreme identity or mansion in heaven).

In Zamjatin's "WE" to part the water is to take "Transavenue 49" while in "The River Merchant's Wife: A letter" the narrows of the river Kiang is where Mary will be. In Catholicsm Mary is the gate of Purgatory stationed there to guard the way to the Tree of Life. This "way" contains the narrows of Kiang where Mary must lead us (the manger in Luke) and from there on it is downhill along the Tigris (thank God for Catholic water) to Eu-phratis (bright-mind) .

So no boat for Jesus.

Chili

Sorry Gerard for spelling your name wrong but while I am here let me add that Rev.13 contains the difference between a rebirth from above in the first beast and from below in the second beast.

For me to do a write up on this would take some time but I may have some of that when winter comes our way.

knot

That's what I think. Chris Angel would be the modern day prophet. These modern day magicians can fool us today, think about how they would appear in biblical times.

Chili

Nothing has changed since the language they speak is foreign to us. We may look with suspicion and try to catch the imposter but in doing so please remember that we are crowd that shouted "crucify him" . . . which is why the theatre of the Absurd is only visible from heaven above.

gstafleu

I was engaging in a bit of positive thinking here, assuming that once you manage to walk on water, or get into the boat, you'll probably get there. I'm an optimist, I know.
That, of course, is assuming there is such a difference. However:
Once we get there, it will turn out that there is here, otherwise we end up on top of that pillar. So, before we get there, there is a difference between above and below, but after we're there, there isn't. No wonder English doesn't have a word for it .
Well, they may both be yanas (be it for some in a rather yoni sense), and granted, Eve is a rather desperate attempt from a hopelessly patriarchal culture to bring her down in size a bit so that she would fit somewhere in the back of the tabernacle. Fortunately, the medieval Christians were a smarter than that and said "Well, screw that"--even though they then didn't--and brought her back more to her original stature. But, having said that, she is the destination, or at least the reason for it. So she is not just a boat, more a package deal.


Gerard Stafleu

God Fearing Atheist

You might also want to check out:

Scherrer, S. 1984. Signs and wonders in the imperial cult: A new look at a Roman religious institution in the light of Rev 13:13-15. Journal of Biblical Literature 103: 599-610.

Scherrer talks about some of the sources already mentioned (Lucian's Alexander, Hippolytus) plus several others.