nessa20x

So even though the religion contains other supernatural beings, it is a monotheism because they define god as being a supernatural being with different characteristics than other supernatural beings which also exist.

I understand the god vs angel difference that you explained now, but by acknowledging their existence as supernatural beings, aren't xians also worshipping angels, satan, etc. Aren't xians just saying they worship one god, when in fact they are worshipping 1 god and several supernatural beings, a son of god, and satan.

I really can't understand where the difference comes in. After all if we "called" Zues the one true god, but still acknowledged all the other lesser supernatural beings and simply called them angels (instead of lesser god mercury,angel gabriel), wouldn't that be very similar to what is going on in xianity??? To me it seems like xianity uses semantics to cover up their polytheism.
ie..they say I believe in one god, but there are also lesser gods called angels, satan, jesus, etcetc

Postcard73

Belief and worship are two different things. Belief that something exists is simple acknowledgment of it. Worship implies reverence and devotion to it. Xians believe Satan exists, but they do not revere him. Xian worship is reserved for God. That's why I think the question of the Trinity comes into play. Xians do worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If it could be determined that any one of the three parts of the Trinity were a separate entity from the other two, then it would be polytheism...

Another possible point to consider is that I think it's at least possible that the line between "natural" and "supernatural" is far more blurred for xians than for atheists. After all, xians believe that the most supernatural being of all walked the Earth in the human form of Jesus Christ and that He actively participates in the daily functions of their lives. To many xians, Satan, angels, demons, etc., are as much a part of the natural world as they themselves are...

The lesser Greek gods had dominion over certain aspects of the world, such as Poseidon's control of the sea. The God of the Bible calls all the shots in xianity...

nessa20x

Ok that makes more sense.
:
quote
Belief and worship are two different things...


Ok if that is true and theism refers only to worship, then I understand the distinction. But Atheism doesn't refer to worship, it refers to belief. Correct?? So "theis" sometimes refers to belief and sometimes to worship? Or does it apply to atheists as well and the term atheist only means that atheists do not worship a god, and that this is completely independent of them believing in gods. So then a polytheistic religion can believe in several gods, but if they only worship one then it is a monotheism...

Do you see my problem??
I am very frustrated by this.

nessa20x

Ok that makes more sense.
:
quote
Belief and worship are two different things...


Ok if that is true and theism refers only to worship, then I understand the distinction. But Atheism doesn't refer to worship, it refers to belief. Correct?? So "theis" sometimes refers to belief and sometimes to worship? Or does it apply to atheists as well and the term atheist only means that atheists do not worship a god, and that this is completely independent of them believing in gods. So then a polytheistic religion can believe in several gods, but if they only worship one then it is a monotheism...

Do you see my problem??
I am very frustrated by this.

mike_decock

I think this topic is better suited for GRD so I'm moving it.

-Mike...

Postcard73

Merriam Webster defines god thusly:

1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality

1a is the definition I think you'd get from most xians, but the second one mentions two things that apply here. First, it claims that a god requires human worship. Angels do not, while Yhwh most certainly does. Second, contrary to the definition, angels do not control any aspect or part of reality. Again, within xianity, that is a trait held solely by Yhwh. Based on this, I would say that Xianity is monotheistic despite the belief in other supernatural beings (barring discussion of the Trinity)...

Of course, I think its absurd either way...

Matrioshka_Brain

Umm, actually the bible mentions an ancient heberw god called "Dagon" in 3 places (Judges 16:23, I Samule 5:2-7, I Chronicles 10:10).

I'm no bibiblical scholar, but I think there is reference to other gods as well (Ba-al maybe, perhaps about 2-3 others {Osiris even?}).

Not to mention you have to figue in things like "...for I am a jealous god", "...for they worship gods they do not know..." (YHWH, commandments), "...from whence I came..." (YHWH, dunno where). Implications of other gods, and an origin for Mr. Yhwh.

As to the trinity, as I understand it's some sort of hive-mind. Jebus was simply a sort of PR-based "outlet", some kind of facad to justify its insanitites to it's followers.

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And as to wether or not one is a polytheist based on "worship" or mere "belife":

Most hindus, as I understand, pick one of their trifecta and worship it specifically. In addition, the ancient greek used "prophets" specfically aligned to one god charicter.

Not to mention, one could be a theist and not worship their theory's centerpeice (all that it requires is a belife in a god, by definition, in order to qualify).

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And as to the definition of worship, and the diety status of the charicter Satan in extremists {Note: fundy =\= extremist automatically}:

I've noticed that christians occasionally make burnt offerings (most notably in the form of literature...), and preach on about it, all in the name of the aformentioned charicter (even if they hate it - it's still an obsession - and their intent is not to destroy it, nor for their god charicter to - their intent is for it to simmer in its own realm, Hell, for all eternity).

Not only that, but the concept of its presence as a prevasive immoralizer can be a source of great alpha-status/power intoxication - in politics (The Religious Reich, descrimination) and society (Tribalism, us vs. them attitudes).

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But yeah, the Dagon and commandments things seem to make it polytheistic in nature, extremeist, moderate, or liberal.

Nothing wrong with that or anything...

Rational BAC

Reading the Bible without the "aid" of Christian canon leads me at least to leave the question of whether Christianity is monotheistic or tritheistic up in the air.

Not that I have anything against the Christian canon---if someone could explain the trinity better I might even buy the concept.

But for all intents and purposes for myself---------seems like there are 3 distinct entities as described in the Gospels. I could be wrong of course.

So when I recite the Nicene creed I do it with a kind of asterick in my own mind. -------not that I am really lying when I say it, just dunno for sure and am open to convincing.

(Same thing with original sin which I do not understand at all)

Postcard73

Thanks for the reply Matrioshka_Brain. I guess the question I'm left with is how did Judaism and Xianity become so thoroughly recognized as monotheistic religions when they are actually polytheistic? I'm not sure that it makes much difference how they're classified since the followers of the two religions still only worship one God; I'm just curious...

CaptainOfOuterSpace

With enough evidence, maybe. Although you would have to define "ghosts" more precisely. Since atheists demand evidence more than anything else, I suspect that a ghost-believing atheist is highly unlikely.