Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RufusAtticus · 05-16-2004, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adora

A real football is. (Stupid yankee "football"... who the hell plays football with padding?! Pussies.)

People who like to hit hard.

McGargoyle · 05-16-2004, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RufusAtticus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adora

A real football is. (Stupid yankee "football"... who the hell plays football with padding?! Pussies.)

People who like to hit hard.

Regarding this, I would like you to look up the stories about the actor and former footballer Vinnie Jones.

But the real question is: who plays football mainly with the hands?

Jet Black · 05-17-2004, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Since when is a ball always a sphere? Last I checked, a footBALL isn't a sphere.

I think this has to be the worst counterargument ever.

Jet Black · 05-17-2004, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RufusAtticus

People who like to hit hard.

like rugby players?

Sven · 05-17-2004, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MachineGod

Is this for real? Are there really people who think the sun goes around the earth? Or that the earth is flat?
Creationists is one thing, I think evolution and “creation�? are both possible. But to say the sun goes around the earth and that the earth is flat is just plain lunacy.

Of course biologists who know the evidence for evolution say that creationism is a lunacy. It's only the people who don't know this evidence who think that there is more evidence for creation than for geocentrism/a flat earth.

Quote:

The Bible isn’t clear on that stuff. Even today we use descriptive metaphors such as “the sun “rises�? in the east and “sets�? in the west.

And it is apparently also not clear enough that Genesis is not literal history.

Quote:

Where the word circle was used in Hebrew to also describe something spherical.

You should make this claim in BC&H and see how far you get with it...

Quote:

Even those who try to say the Bible claims the earth is flat due to statements of “the four corners of the earth�?, doesn’t have enough sense to see that the four corners are the point where the four rivers split in four directions, during the description of the garden of Eden.

And you interpretation is of course correct - because of what? Also something for BC&H.

Worldtraveller · 05-17-2004, 06:29 AM

Herakles.... :notworthy
I believe that about sums it up, doesn't it? But let's not get this too far off track.
I wonder what all those flat earthers think of the space programs? All one big conspiracy? No one has ever really sent probes to Jupiter, Staurn, Mars...etc.
Cheers,
Lane

lpetrich · 05-17-2004, 08:16 AM

A big problem with allegorical interpretation is how one decides what is literal and what is allegorical -- it often reduces to "it's literal when I like it, and it's allegorical when I don't like it."

Clivedurdle · 05-17-2004, 08:40 AM

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

In about the middle of the article he cites the references purported to show a rectangular Earth.

With my activity against Creation Science, I have expected to be challenged to a debate. If and when that happens, I'm going to agree to debate against Creation Science if they will agree to debate against the flat Earth with me taking the affirmative on the flat Earth. Biblically, the case for a flat Earth is MUCH stronger than the case for a recent creation.

Greg

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_paga.gif

I got it from a discussion at:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl1.htm

Greg, I haven't looked at your references yet, but I do remember a fundy "witness" telling me that the "4 corners" reference is one of those "manifestly figurative" statements that we aren't supposed to take literally.

There are references*suggesting a*round world in the Bible apparently, but I've been told that they are all in texts written following Ptolomy and the Hellenist influence.* It's a myth that everyone believed the world was round at Columbus' time.* Greek scientists drew the conclusion from the shadow on the moon during lunar eclipses (See the chapter of Sagan's*Cosmos entitled "The Backbone of Night" - Ionian scientists even speculated about evolution and conceptualized calculus).

Drummond

A couple very entertaining links re: flat earth
Article on Charles Johnson, who was the president of the International Flat Earth Research Society til his death in 2001, can be found here:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm

Johnson declared that the space shuttle was a huge hoax by NASA to perpetuate the round-earth "myth." Quite serious and very bizarre.

This site has a copy of a brochure from the society; it's hilarious.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.html

I have wondered whether it's an urban legend, it's so crazy:

"The Fact the Earth is Flat is not my opinion, it is a Proved Fact. Also demonstrated Sun and Moon are about 3,000 miles away are both 32 miles across. The Planets are 'tiny.' Sun and Moon do Move, earth does NOT move, whirl, spin or gyrate. Australians do NOT hang by their feet under the world...this is a FACT, not a theory! Also a Fact the Spinning, Whirling, Gyrating Ball World Planet, Globe Idea is Entirely 100% now and at all times in the Past, a RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE...a Blind Dogmatic Article of Faith in the Religion for the Blind unreasoning beast of prey. No earthly reason for a Sane, Upright Member of the Elite Elect Humans to subscribe to it. Also a Fact, today the Elite of Earth ALL live on the Flat World. Only the illogical unreasoning "herd"...prefers the way-out occult weird theology of the old Greek superstitution earth a spinning ball! Both Copernecious and Newton, the inventors of the "modern" superstitions (400 year OLD modern) have said: "It is not possible for a Sane reasonable person to ever really believe these Theories." Thus sayeth Newton-Copernecious. What sayeth THOU?"
Copied verbatim from the site.)

Lastly, these sites have some excellent information on flat-earth fanatics:

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth.html

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Atheist Girl

Clivedurdle · 05-17-2004, 08:50 AM

Modern flat earthers may actually have picked up on the fiction that Columbus argued the world was round against the alleged common belief that it was flat.

So we are seeing an idea that was put forward by a couple of people in the first few centuries CE - against the vast majority of opinion - used as anti christian propaganda in the nineteenth century and converted into a 21 st century format by extreme christians!

Can anyone hold any independent views about anything?

Peez · 05-17-2004, 09:46 AM

Here are a few Biblical verses that imply a flat unmoving earth:

Quote:

1 Samuel 2:8
"He raises the poor from the dust,
He lifts the needy from the ash heap
To make them sit with nobles,
And inherit a seat of honor;
For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S,
And He set the world on them.

Quote:

1 Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before Him, all the earth;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

Quote:

Job 37:3
"Under the whole heaven He lets it loose,
And His lightning to the ends of the earth.

Quote:

Psalms 19:4
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

Psalms 19:5
Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.

Psalms 19:6
Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Quote:

Psalms 93:1
The LORD reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The LORD has clothed and girded Himself with strength;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

Quote:

Psalms 96:10
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity."

Quote:

Psalms 103:12
As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Quote:

Psalms 104:5
He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.

Quote:

Isaiah 11:12
And He will lift up a standard for the nations
And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

Quote:

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

Quote:

Daniel 4:11
'The tree grew large and became strong
And its height reached to the sky,
And it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

Quote:

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;

Quote:

Revelation 1:7
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Quote:

Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

Here are the verses that I found that imply a spherical earth, or one that orbits the sun:

Quote:

.

Did I miss any?

Peez

05-17-2004, 08:40 AM	#38
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The Earth is Flat! http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm In about the middle of the article he cites the references purported to show a rectangular Earth. With my activity against Creation Science, I have expected to be challenged to a debate. If and when that happens, I'm going to agree to debate against Creation Science if they will agree to debate against the flat Earth with me taking the affirmative on the flat Earth. Biblically, the case for a flat Earth is MUCH stronger than the case for a recent creation. Greg http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_paga.gif I got it from a discussion at: http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl1.htm Greg, I haven't looked at your references yet, but I do remember a fundy "witness" telling me that the "4 corners" reference is one of those "manifestly figurative" statements that we aren't supposed to take literally. There are referencessuggesting around world in the Bible apparently, but I've been told that they are all in texts written following Ptolomy and the Hellenist influence.* It's a myth that everyone believed the world was round at Columbus' time.* Greek scientists drew the conclusion from the shadow on the moon during lunar eclipses (See the chapter of Sagan's*Cosmos entitled "The Backbone of Night" - Ionian scientists even speculated about evolution and conceptualized calculus). Drummond A couple very entertaining links re: flat earth Article on Charles Johnson, who was the president of the International Flat Earth Research Society til his death in 2001, can be found here: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm Johnson declared that the space shuttle was a huge hoax by NASA to perpetuate the round-earth "myth." Quite serious and very bizarre. This site has a copy of a brochure from the society; it's hilarious. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.html I have wondered whether it's an urban legend, it's so crazy: "The Fact the Earth is Flat is not my opinion, it is a Proved Fact. Also demonstrated Sun and Moon are about 3,000 miles away are both 32 miles across. The Planets are 'tiny.' Sun and Moon do Move, earth does NOT move, whirl, spin or gyrate. Australians do NOT hang by their feet under the world...this is a FACT, not a theory! Also a Fact the Spinning, Whirling, Gyrating Ball World Planet, Globe Idea is Entirely 100% now and at all times in the Past, a RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE...a Blind Dogmatic Article of Faith in the Religion for the Blind unreasoning beast of prey. No earthly reason for a Sane, Upright Member of the Elite Elect Humans to subscribe to it. Also a Fact, today the Elite of Earth ALL live on the Flat World. Only the illogical unreasoning "herd"...prefers the way-out occult weird theology of the old Greek superstitution earth a spinning ball! Both Copernecious and Newton, the inventors of the "modern" superstitions (400 year OLD modern) have said: "It is not possible for a Sane reasonable person to ever really believe these Theories." Thus sayeth Newton-Copernecious. What sayeth THOU?" Copied verbatim from the site.) Lastly, these sites have some excellent information on flat-earth fanatics: http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth.html http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm Atheist Girl

05-17-2004, 08:50 AM	#39
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Washington Irvine and Columbus Modern flat earthers may actually have picked up on the fiction that Columbus argued the world was round against the alleged common belief that it was flat. So we are seeing an idea that was put forward by a couple of people in the first few centuries CE - against the vast majority of opinion - used as anti christian propaganda in the nineteenth century and converted into a 21 st century format by extreme christians! Can anyone hold any independent views about anything?

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05-17-2004, 06:29 AM	#36
Worldtraveller Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 7,834	Herakles.... :notworthy I believe that about sums it up, doesn't it? But let's not get this too far off track. I wonder what all those flat earthers think of the space programs? All one big conspiracy? No one has ever really sent probes to Jupiter, Staurn, Mars...etc. Cheers, Lane

05-17-2004, 08:16 AM	#37
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	A big problem with allegorical interpretation is how one decides what is literal and what is allegorical -- it often reduces to "it's literal when I like it, and it's allegorical when I don't like it."

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