Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ben C Smith · 01-22-2006, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

That sounds reasonable. I was wondering if it might not suggest that Mark's community/audience considered itself a continuation of a movement that began (or was based) in Galilee as opposed to one that began (or was based) in Jerusalem. We see some of this in the Mt/Lk revisions with one keeping the Galilee setting and the other appearing to change it to Jerusalem.

That might well be. The whole dichotomy between Galilee and Jerusalem in the resurrection appearances is still a puzzle so far as I am concerned.

Incidentally, with regard to evidence for outright invention in the gospels, I think that Luke 24.6 (and the ensuing appearances in Jerusalem) compared with Mark 16.7 (and the implied appearance in Galilee) is excellent evidence for it.

Quote:

Lost or removed and replaced?

I think lost. While I have no theoretical objection to some sober churchman removing some kind of Marcan infelicity at the end of his gospel, to do so in such a way as to make the thing intentionally end with for they were afraid seems unlikely to me. If it was ever there, I think it got dropped off by accident.

Quote:

BTW, why do you think he would add Andrew to the "Main Three"?

Excellent question, for which I unfortunately have no excellent answer. Perhaps Mark really was based on secondhand Petrine memories which really remembered some kind of dialogue that included Andrew, his brother. My only other speculation so far (and this very question has exercised me now and again for some time) is that it has something to do with the same foursome in Mark 1.16-20.

Quote:

[Andrew] got zero mentions by Paul and only appears in Acts as part of a disciple list. John is really the only other author to feature him somewhat prominently....

He also appears in Papias (and in first place before Peter, no less, much as in John, as you point out). But I agree that he does not pop up very much after the gospel narratives.

Ben.

Vorkosigan · 01-22-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Mark 13 presumes that the disciples, including Peter, will be in positions of influence in the church, and not as the enemy. Verse 13 asserts that, sometime after Jesus is off the scene (see 13.6), these disciples will be persecuted in the name of Jesus. This verse also holds out hope that they will endure to the end. I do not see the point of any of this if Mark knows that the death of Jesus was the end for the disciples.

Incorrect. Mark 13 knows that the followers of Jesus will be persecuted, not the disciples. Jesus is addressing the audience, not those listening on the mountain with him.

Quote:

1. We know from Mark 14.28 and 16.7 that the disciples will see the risen Lord in Galilee.
2. We know from Mark 13.9 that at least some of the disciples (you; refer to 13.3) will be arrested and will stand before kings and governors for the sake of Jesus sometime after Jesus is physically off the scene (see 13.6).
3. We know from Mark 13.13 that Jesus holds out hope for at least some of the disciples that they will (this time) endure to the end.

YOu have already linked Mark 1:16-20 and the putative lost ending of Mark. I think 16:8 transitions quite well back to 1:15, and you could just as well argue that the gospel turns back on itself, based on the same evidence.

A further problem is that this sequence of events is a typology for what happens in Jesus' passion -- he'll be beaten and stand before kings, and then be executed (Jesus' cross is the abomination of the desolation; I'm convinced that the writer of Mark has Jesus executed in the Temple). This passage has no significance for the disciples, whom Mark knows nothing about, save what he has read in Paul (and as individuals most of whom he invented). Rather, it is aimed at the reader, as a set of warnings about their religious experience, and as a typology for later events in the gospel. It may also function as a set of directions for how to behave during the baptism ceremony which I suspect Mark functioned as a text for. The whole thing is literary and fictive and aimed at the writer's present.

As for my comments about Jesus being executed in the Temple, Gibson just posted to Jim West's Bib Studies list a paper of his on the blasphemy charge in Mark 14, at the Sanhedrin trial, which he says tracks a similar trial in Josephus War, that of Zachariah, son of Baruch:

"Here, as in Mk 14:54-63, we have a capital trial before a hastily summoned Sanhedrin. Here, as in Mk. 14:54-63, the trial occurs in the Temple precincts and in an atmosphere not only of crisis but of eschatological expectation centering in the God of Israel's imminent deliverance of his people from oppression and the destruction of Israel's enemies. Here, as in Mk. 14:54-63, those who convene the trial believe in holy war. Here, as in Mark, we have the appearance of false witnesses and the sounding of the theme of a predetermined verdict. Here, as in Mark, the one brought into court is a figure who is known and identified as standing in opposition to the ideology of those who have convened his trial. Here, as in Mark, the accused speaks out forcefully against the ideology of those who would condemn him. Here, as in Mark, the remarks of the accused evoke from his accusers both physical and verbal expressions of rage and indignation. Here, as in Mark, we find an outworking of a theme that standing on the side of the accused creates risks for those who might do so. And here, as in Mark, the one accused is handed over to mockery and an ignominious death."(p11)

On my reading there is one additional parallel: both Jesus and Zach are killed in the Temple.

Hence your reading understands the text in a way that the author never intended, resulting from the historicist axioms that you bring to the text, rather than permitting the text to speak to you and tell you what it means.

Vorkosigan

Ben C Smith · 01-23-2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Incorrect. Mark 13 knows that the followers of Jesus will be persecuted, not the disciples. Jesus is addressing the audience, not those listening on the mountain with him.

Now, Michael, you are asking me to blithely ignore Mark 13.3-4, where Mark specifically identifies the firsthand audience by name (Peter, James, John, Andrew) and goes out of his way to tell us that these four disciples asked for the information in private:

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately: Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?

And you are asking me to ignore Mark 13.5, where Jesus is said to be giving his answer to them:

And Jesus began to say to them: See to it that no one misleads you.

Quote:

Hence your reading understands the text in a way that the author never intended, resulting from the historicist axioms that you bring to the text....

What historicist axioms are required to notice that Jesus is addressing four of his closest disciples in private in the second person plural in Mark 13?

I completely agree that Mark 13, as the author has presented it, is not intended only for those four disciples. (Why publish it in a gospel if it were meant to remain a secret?) But Mark has very obviously presented it as intended at least for those four disciples.

Quote:

You have already linked Mark 1:16-20 and the putative lost ending of Mark. I think 16:8 transitions quite well back to 1:15, and you could just as well argue that the gospel turns back on itself, based on the same evidence.

I think I agree, but I do not see whither this is going.

The rest of your post appears to follow from your position that Mark 13 was not addressed to the disciples, a position that is blatantly incorrect on its face.

Ben.

JoeWallack · 01-23-2006, 07:18 AM

JW:
Ahem. Continuing:

9: (NIV)
33 "They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you arguing about on the road?" 34But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest.
35Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

JW:
Note that What preceded was Who Jesus is. Now I think the subject is Who The Disciples are. There's an Implication here that whoever wants to be first will be last and The Disciples were arguing about who was the Greatest rather than what Jesus meant when he said he would be killed and than rise. If the Jew fits. And maybe whoever doesn't want to be First will be First. Like an Anonymous Author or Anointer or Reader as Opposed to Famous Named Disciples? Is this why Jesus asks to take The Cup away at Gethsemane, he doesn't want to be First (so he can be First)? As the Bnai Jesuright mother said in the classic "Dune" when asked if Paul was the Kwiznet Saturnalracht, "Perhaps".

"36He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37"Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."

JW:
Vork, play back the earlier Little Children story:

13 "People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them."

JW:
So it was The Disciples (surprise) who were not welcoming the Little Children. And The Disciples were even Rebuking just like Jesus likes to. Again, "Mark" uses "The Little Children" as an expression of people who Believe on Faith just like children do. The Little Child is than placed in the middle of The Disciples. A Figurative Replacement?

42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[c] 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[d] 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[e] 49Everyone will be salted with fire."

JW:
Vork, play back The Parable:

4: (NIV)
13 "Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away."

JW:
We agree that "When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away." refers to Peter. As I pointed out before the underlying Greek word for "to sin" from "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin" is the same as for "fall away". In addition to the relation of these Parables "Mark" has just shown The Disciples rebuking people for bringing Little Children to Jesus. Can you still connect The Datums?

50"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other."

JW:
Doesn't sound like Preaching of a Second chance to me. And at the end of a Section primairly about The Disciples. Jesus spoke Clearly that he would only speak Unclearly in Parables. For Parables it seems Clear (no Second Chance). Haven't you ever heard of Salt (St.) Peter?

Joseph

"I mean whose to say who's really crazy anyway? Maybe we should just lock up all the sane people and let out all the crazy people and let them run the Country. No, wait a minute. That would be a bad idea." - Stewardess - "Airplane".

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 01-24-2006, 07:34 AM

JW:
Continuing:
10: (NIV)
23 "Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"
24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

JW:
The direct reading would appear to be Positive treatment for Ben. But there's that Negative Implication at the End (Again):

"But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

Is this referring to The Disciples? It would fit Amalek's X-Uh-Jesus that "Mark" as is does have an Implication that The Disciples saw Jesus in Galilee as a concession to what was generally believed at the time but because of their Desertion were no longer The Disciples and the Author intentionally didn't show the Reunion to downplay the significance of The Disciples at that point. In this Author's Ironic Contrasting Literary world though, I think it Possible that he's throwing out two Themes:

1) The Disciples were Total Failures who abandoned the Jesus Movement.

2) Historically The Disciples were disciples but over rated because they did not Understand Jesus like the Author did.

But I think the overall message is 1) and 2) has received some Editing help.

"They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. 33"We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise."
35Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask."
36"What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
37They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory."
38"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"
39"We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."
41When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
46Then they came to Jericho. As Jesus and his disciples, together with a large crowd, were leaving the city, a blind man, Bartimaeus (that is, the Son of Timaeus), was sitting by the roadside begging. 47When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!"
48Many rebuked him and told him to be quiet, but he shouted all the more, "Son of David, have mercy on me!"
49Jesus stopped and said, "Call him." So they called to the blind man, "Cheer up! On your feet! He's calling you." 50Throwing his cloak aside, he jumped to his feet and came to Jesus.
51"What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him.
The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see."
52"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road."

JW:
Again the Pattern:

1) Jesus predicts his death. He will be Humbled and therefore First.

2) The Reaction is James and John want to be Glorified with Jesus. They want to be First.

3) The Reaction of the Other Disciples to James and John is Indignation. They want to be First also.

4) Jesus explains that the First will be Last.

5) A Blind Stranger has Faith and is able to see Jesus and Follow him.

Vork, play back the HighLight Reel for Chapter 8:

1) Jesus First predicts his death. He will be Humbled and therefore First.

2) The Reaction of Peter is Indignation.

3) Jesus explains that you have to Act like Jesus.

So Peter is the First to have a Problem with The Way Jesus is going to be First. James and John are Second. Just like The Order of their Calling in Chapter 1. Was "Andrew" a harmonization?

Vork, play back the HighLIght Reel for Chapter 9:

1) Jesus predicts his death. He will be Humbled and therefore First.

2) The Reaction is all The Disciples want to be First.

3) Jesus explains that the First will be Last.

4) A Little Child shall Lead them.

This seems to be an Important point to The Author Ben as he's made it 3, count em, 3, times and associated it with Jesus' death:

The order of your Calling is not important and who knows, it could even work against you (make you think you are Important).

Joseph

MONASTERY, n.
A place of retirement for men who wish for leisure to meditate upon the vice of idleness.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Ben C Smith · 01-24-2006, 07:53 AM

Joe, can you offer your exegesis of this verse?

Jesus said to them: You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with....

What does Jesus mean when he says that James and John will drink the cup and be baptized with the baptism?

Ben.

JoeWallack · 01-24-2006, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Joe, can you offer your exegesis of this verse?

Jesus said to them: You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with....

What does Jesus mean when he says that James and John will drink the cup and be baptized with the baptism?

Ben.

JW:
Who needs exegesis, I'll just offer you the Text:

(NIV)
23 "Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.
24"This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25"I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."
26When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial
27"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written:
" 'I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.'[c] 28But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee."
29Peter declared, "Even if all fall away, I will not."
30"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice[d] you yourself will disown me three times."
31But Peter insisted emphatically, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the others said the same.
Gethsemane
32They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." 33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch."
35Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36"Abba,[e] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
37Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
39Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.
41Returning the third time, he said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

JW:
Literally/Physically they could. Figuratively/Spiritually they couldn't. By The Way Ben, feel free to let me know when I start to sound like Chili.

Joseph

Ben C Smith · 01-24-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Literally/Physically they could. Figuratively/Spiritually they couldn't.

Okay, so they could or could not, but did they in fact drink the cup that Jesus drank and suffer the baptism with which he was baptized?

Quote:

By The Way Ben, feel free to let me know when I start to sound like Chili.

Ding, ding, ding. (Just kidding, man.

)

Julian · 01-25-2006, 07:22 AM

As I mentioned earlier, I have been having some problems fitting Mark 13 into my theory of attacks on the disciples. However, something popped into my head last night.

13:33-37 mentions watching three times in typical Markan fashion. It admonishes the disciples (and the christian readers, more importantly) to watch and be alert.

Skip ahead a few verses to the Gethsemane scene in 14:32-41 where we find the disciples (specifically Peter, James and John. Recognize them from some epistle?

) failing in the exact way that they were just warned about. Three times, no less.

It seems that the last part of chapter 13 is nothing more than another setup to illustrate the failing of the pillars, with some christian instruction thrown in.

Julian

Spincracker · 01-25-2006, 07:36 AM

For a long time people have claimed Mark is about discipleship, but there is a great book to show why this is false (Hearing the Whole Story, Horlsey, Richard).

Obviously, people did think that because the disciples are depicted as bungling fools.

Once we try hearing Mark, instead of reading it, we begin to see it in an entirely new light.

01-23-2006, 07:18 AM	#104
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	One Cuckoo Flew Above The Rest JW: Ahem. Continuing: 9: (NIV) 33 "They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you arguing about on the road?" 34But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest. 35Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all." JW: Note that What preceded was Who Jesus is. Now I think the subject is Who The Disciples are. There's an Implication here that whoever wants to be first will be last and The Disciples were arguing about who was the Greatest rather than what Jesus meant when he said he would be killed and than rise. If the Jew fits. And maybe whoever doesn't want to be First will be First. Like an Anonymous Author or Anointer or Reader as Opposed to Famous Named Disciples? Is this why Jesus asks to take The Cup away at Gethsemane, he doesn't want to be First (so he can be First)? As the Bnai Jesuright mother said in the classic "Dune" when asked if Paul was the Kwiznet Saturnalracht, "Perhaps". "36He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37"Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me." JW: Vork, play back the earlier Little Children story: 13 "People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them." JW: So it was The Disciples (surprise) who were not welcoming the Little Children. And The Disciples were even Rebuking just like Jesus likes to. Again, "Mark" uses "The Little Children" as an expression of people who Believe on Faith just like children do. The Little Child is than placed in the middle of The Disciples. A Figurative Replacement? 42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[c] 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[d] 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'[e] 49Everyone will be salted with fire." JW: Vork, play back The Parable: 4: (NIV) 13 "Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away." JW: We agree that "When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away." refers to Peter. As I pointed out before the underlying Greek word for "to sin" from "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin" is the same as for "fall away". In addition to the relation of these Parables "Mark" has just shown The Disciples rebuking people for bringing Little Children to Jesus. Can you still connect The Datums? 50"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other." JW: Doesn't sound like Preaching of a Second chance to me. And at the end of a Section primairly about The Disciples. Jesus spoke Clearly that he would only speak Unclearly in Parables. For Parables it seems Clear (no Second Chance). Haven't you ever heard of Salt (St.) Peter? Joseph "I mean whose to say who's really crazy anyway? Maybe we should just lock up all the sane people and let out all the crazy people and let them run the Country. No, wait a minute. That would be a bad idea." - Stewardess - "Airplane". http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

01-24-2006, 07:34 AM	#105
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	They Were Just Following Religious Orders JW: Continuing: 10: (NIV) 23 "Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!" 24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?" 27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." 28Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow you!" 29"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first." JW: The direct reading would appear to be Positive treatment for Ben. But there's that Negative Implication at the End (Again): "But many who are first will be last, and the last first." Is this referring to The Disciples? It would fit Amalek's X-Uh-Jesus that "Mark" as is does have an Implication that The Disciples saw Jesus in Galilee as a concession to what was generally believed at the time but because of their Desertion were no longer The Disciples and the Author intentionally didn't show the Reunion to downplay the significance of The Disciples at that point. In this Author's Ironic Contrasting Literary world though, I think it Possible that he's throwing out two Themes: 1) The Disciples were Total Failures who abandoned the Jesus Movement. 2) Historically The Disciples were disciples but over rated because they did not Understand Jesus like the Author did. But I think the overall message is 1) and 2) has received some Editing help. "They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. 33"We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise." 35Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask." 36"What do you want me to do for you?" he asked. 37They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory." 38"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?" 39"We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared." 41When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." 46Then they came to Jericho. As Jesus and his disciples, together with a large crowd, were leaving the city, a blind man, Bartimaeus (that is, the Son of Timaeus), was sitting by the roadside begging. 47When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!" 48Many rebuked him and told him to be quiet, but he shouted all the more, "Son of David, have mercy on me!" 49Jesus stopped and said, "Call him." So they called to the blind man, "Cheer up! On your feet! He's calling you." 50Throwing his cloak aside, he jumped to his feet and came to Jesus. 51"What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him. The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see." 52"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road." JW: Again the Pattern: 1) Jesus predicts his death. He will be Humbled and therefore First. 2) The Reaction is James and John want to be Glorified with Jesus. They want to be First. 3) The Reaction of the Other Disciples to James and John is Indignation. They want to be First also. 4) Jesus explains that the First will be Last. 5) A Blind Stranger has Faith and is able to see Jesus and Follow him. Vork, play back the HighLight Reel for Chapter 8: 1) Jesus First predicts his death. He will be Humbled and therefore First. 2) The Reaction of Peter is Indignation. 3) Jesus explains that you have to Act like Jesus. So Peter is the First to have a Problem with The Way Jesus is going to be First. James and John are Second. Just like The Order of their Calling in Chapter 1. Was "Andrew" a harmonization? Vork, play back the HighLIght Reel for Chapter 9: 1) Jesus predicts his death. He will be Humbled and therefore First. 2) The Reaction is all The Disciples want to be First. 3) Jesus explains that the First will be Last. 4) A Little Child shall Lead them. This seems to be an Important point to The Author Ben as he's made it 3, count em, 3, times and associated it with Jesus' death: The order of your Calling is not important and who knows, it could even work against you (make you think you are Important). Joseph MONASTERY, n. A place of retirement for men who wish for leisure to meditate upon the vice of idleness. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

01-24-2006, 07:53 AM	#106
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Joe, can you offer your exegesis of this verse? Jesus said to them: You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with.... What does Jesus mean when he says that James and John will drink the cup and be baptized with the baptism? Ben.

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01-25-2006, 07:22 AM	#109
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	As I mentioned earlier, I have been having some problems fitting Mark 13 into my theory of attacks on the disciples. However, something popped into my head last night. 13:33-37 mentions watching three times in typical Markan fashion. It admonishes the disciples (and the christian readers, more importantly) to watch and be alert. Skip ahead a few verses to the Gethsemane scene in 14:32-41 where we find the disciples (specifically Peter, James and John. Recognize them from some epistle? ) failing in the exact way that they were just warned about. Three times, no less. It seems that the last part of chapter 13 is nothing more than another setup to illustrate the failing of the pillars, with some christian instruction thrown in. Julian

01-25-2006, 07:36 AM	#110
Spincracker Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: MA Posts: 1,091	For a long time people have claimed Mark is about discipleship, but there is a great book to show why this is false (Hearing the Whole Story, Horlsey, Richard). Obviously, people did think that because the disciples are depicted as bungling fools. Once we try hearing Mark, instead of reading it, we begin to see it in an entirely new light.

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