Magus55

Who knows. Hitler was supposedly Catholic, and we all know how much value I hold to the Catholic church. Maybe Hitler was Catholic, and Mary was his lord and savior. He wouldn't be the first to hold that view. The alleged Vicar of Christ holds that view, and weren't Catholics very anti-semitic back then? In other words, Hitler may have been Catholic, but that doesn't mean he worshipped or followed Christ.

There are pretty clear cut criteria to what it means to follow Jesus. Jesus was about loving others, and turning the other cheek. The entire Bible supports the Jews, and they are the most important people in the Bible. Jesus Himself was a Jew, as was pretty much everyone who wrote the Bible. Thou shalt not murder is one of the most famous commandments, given by both YHWH and Jesus. Now explain to me how Hitler, if he were a devout Christian, could fail to see all this, and think that God's chosen people need to be blotted off the Earth?

A possible conclusion - Hitler was Catholic, and since according to Catholic doctrine, only the Magisterium can read and interpret the Bible correctly, Hitler didn't read the Bible, and followed the Catholic church's violent, antisemitic persona, eventually condeming all Christianity, and exalting himself.

I'm not denying God. I fully believe in God, and accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. But aren't I still atheist? If not, you are invoking the NTSF.

Chili

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Chili

Hitler was a born again Catholic which made him a "Jesus worshipper" as presented in Rev. 13-17 and after that anything can happen.

I hated to tell you this Magus but that's how it is.

Jeremy Pallant

Yes, you are still an atheist. At least with respect to all of the world's other gods.

Psalm 13:5

Ok, let's clear up this confusion once and for all. Not just on this thread, but I've noticed on other threads that many atheists don't get that being a Christian is more than merely being born into a Christian family, or being baptized as a baby, or even going to church as an adult. Jesus said, we have to be born again, unless someone is born again, they will not see the kingdom of God. Those are His words, and you can read the whole chapter here.

Many people in this world are a part of one religion or another. That in and of itself is not the important thing. The important thing is what is inside the person, have they been reborn through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, or do they still have an unregenerate spirit?

Let's look at what Jesus said.


"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." - John 13:35


I think it's clear that Hitler did not love others. I think Hitler was the epitome of hate.

A regenerated Christian will show a changed life, if there have been no positive changes in the person, that is not a good sign. You will see positive results, or good "fruit", here are Jesus' words:

"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. " - Matthew 7:17-18


If you see rotten fruit, then that is a sign that it stems from a corrupt tree. Jesus said 'you will know them by their fruit.'

"So then, you will know them by their fruits." - Matthew 7:20

"By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples." - John 15:8



A regenerated Christian will be a changed person, a new creation:


Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. - 2 Corinthians 5:17



Good works are a sign of salvation (not how one is saved, but a sign they are saved)

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? - James 2:14


Also, obedience to God's word:

But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it" - Luke 8:21


and adherence to the Gospel:


Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you; unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures - 1 Cor. 15:1-4



A born again Christian is no longer a 'slave to sin'. They are set free, this doesn't mean that they never again sin, but that they have a new heart, and a new spirit, their old self was crucified, they are a changed person.



"... the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" - John 8:32-36


Just saying you are a Christian, or saying you have God is not evidence of regeneration. Anyone can say they're a Christian.


If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. - 1 John 1:6-7


It all comes down to our spirit. Here's a quote by J.I. Packer

Regeneration is the spiritual change wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith, and live in accordance with His Will (Matt. 19:28; John 3:3,5,7; Titus 3:5). It is an inner re-creating of fallen human nature by the gracious sovereign action of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-8). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). It extends to the whole nature of man, altering his governing disposition, illuminating his mind, freeing his will, and renewing his nature.


And what is the 'fruit' of the Spirit?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23


I see much of the opposite in Hitler.

Also, a Bible believing, born again Christian understands that Jews are the people, and nation (Israel) God chose through which the Redeemer would come, and God's plan for the world. Jesus (God Himself) was a Jew, and most Bible believing Christians feel a special kinship with Jews... we support Israel. To be honest, I honestly think that people who hate Jews are led by the enemy, that is one reason why I said I think Hitler is satanic. I think the root of anti-semitism and Nazism is occultic.

French Prometheus

This has been answered above.


The problem, Magus, is that your Christ says a lot of things in the Bible which can be interpreted in a lot of ways. You may cling to the Matt 19:19 version of Jesus but others may prefer the Luke 19:27 version. You may cling to Paul's theology as regards the Sabbath while ignoring Paul's harsh condemnation of the Jews (as a religious group, not as an ethnic group). But others may take 1 Thess 2:15-16 literally. Agreeing to your interpretation of the Bible is not a requirement to be a Christian. Neither is behaving like your personal version of Jesus a requirement. You're not a prophet and God did not send you to speak on his behalf.


This is a false analogy.
Atheism means absence of belief in God. It doesn't imply anything else beyond that. If you believe in God then you are not an atheist (that's called the law of excluded middle). But you can believe in a god-free afterlife populated with sheep-shagging blue leprechauns and you will still be an atheist.

Skeptic Pete

umm...............I'm still confused.

maybe if you tried again without reference to jesus quotes.

To us without an agenda, only a "bible believing born again" christian believes that their definition of christian is the right one. Don't you get it?

Skeptic Pete

I see much of the opposite in God.

French Prometheus

Mary is the Pope' lord and savior? :rolling:
Where and when did he used this expression?

Let me re-post the whole quote Magus (emphasis mine of course):
So, in the mind of a self-declared Christian, who is this Lord and Savior who drove a bunch of people out of the Temple 2000 years ago and shed his blood on the cross?

Psalm 13:5

Now you've baffled me. I know you don't believe, but don't you think that in terms of salvation, and knowing if someone is a child of God... what Jesus Himself said is important? I purposely posted straight from the Bible, because my own words are not what's important, what the Bible says is.

I didn't think what I posted was confusing, I purposely tried to make it simple and clear. If it wasn't, then please point out the things that you disagree with, or that you didn't understand.