Toto

And yet, Jesus was so obscure that there is no record of him in secular records or Jewish records, and his movement remained very small for several centuries.

Not only that, but none of the people around him even thought to write down what he wrote. Not only that, but two centuries later, scholars cannot distinguish what he wrote from the words of Cynic philosophers of the time.

And, of course, we have only the words of his followers to know what he actually said, and that he won all the arguments - hardly a reliable source.

He spoke, according to historians, very much like others of his day. According to Hyam Maccoby, he spoke within the Pharisaic tradition.

But he also spoke so obscurely that many of his hearers could not figure out what he meant and fought about it to the death for the next few millenia - hardly the mark of a great communicator.

Chris Weimer

Well, this is really because there were many nasim (I believe that is the correct plural) who claimed to be the messiah. Judaism at the time was very eschatological, and very zealous. Lots of people claimed to be the messiah and formed little sects. Christianity, before the current naming in Antioch, was called Nazareanism (the sect of the Nazarenes), and was like all the other crazies who were there. And then there was Paul the Spawn of Satan. It was him that he can attribute the schism between Judaism and Nazarean sect.

Godless Wonder

Jesus, son of God, God himself even, as the story goes, capable of turning water to wine, of multiplying loaves of bread, of walking on water, of raising himself from the dead, of creating the entire universe so wise is he alleged to be, that when hungry and confronted by a fig tree in the distance, to be discovered by the omniscient one to be barren only upon approach, does what?

Makes the fig tree sprout figs? Turns stones to loaves of bread?

No, he curses the fig tree (Which is only later found dead.) and walks away hungry.

Wise. Pffft. Lunatic and liar is more like it. "How was Jesus so wise?" indeed.

Cubeless Academian

A concrete example or two would be great. What exactly did Jesus say to the scholars that you find so impressive?

No one's saying he was a fool or just an average Joe. Maybe he was even an unusually wise person. But why is that inconsistent with his being "just a carpenter"? You don't have to be wealthy or educated to be wise. In fact, the simple working man with his homespun wisdom is common enough to have become a stereotype.

Does Jesus show himself to be more knowledgeable or educated than a carpenter could have been? No, I don't think so. The only education he demonstrates is a familiarity with the Jewish scriptures -- which is to be expected, since he was a Jew and heard readings from the scriptures every week at synagogue. As for science, history, and every other branch of knowledge, Jesus demonstrates no more knowledge than we would expect from a 1st century Jewish carpenter.

I can only think of one example of Jesus demonstrating an unexpected level of education:

So Jesus knew how to read, which would be unusual for an uneducated carpenter. Unusual -- but astonishing? so astonishing that the only explanation is that he must have been God? I don't think so.

Jesus may have been an extraordinary man, but not superhumanly so. No more extraordinary than, say, Abraham Lincoln.

Not_Registered

Because the vast majority of people are debating whether Jesus was wise or not, I'll begin to address that issue as well.

Many have asked me for specific examples showing Jesus being wise. I had assumed that the people reading this thread had read or atleast scanned the gospels. In the gospels are many accounts where Jesus' wisdom is displayed, in my opinion. The thing that amazes me is that the point the many, I'll say, infidels (which includes atheist, non-theist, etc.) in this forum are arguing against is the very same point I've heard many infidels use as their defense. I am not claiming that any of you have used the point as a defense, but I wouldn't be surprised if that were true. The point being that Jesus is just a wise man. I have argued with several infidels on the divinity of Jesus and their argument is that Jesus was not divine, but that He was just a wise man. Now, I'm hearing from the infidels that Jesus was not divine nor was He a wise man, but (I have to include) that He was just an "average" Joe. Well we then must agree that He is the most accomplished "average" Joe in history.

I must also note that many people have assumed that I was going to conclude that Jesus was divine because He was so wise. First of all, I never stated or implied that. All I was going to say, if we admitted that Jesus was wise, is note His given background (that He was an ordinary carpenter) and to show that, at least to me, that seems slightly amazing and just leave it at that. Personally, I think all people who have unexplained wisdom, not those who spend 20 years in some superior institution, but those who have a natural wisdom that's almost not of this world have been blessed by God, but that is another topic. Anyway, I never desired to or thought about saying Jesus is divine based on His wisdom. Secondly, it would be ludicrous that I would say Jesus is divine solely based on His natural (I believe God-given) wisdom. That would make many people in history divine and that is just ludicrous to say. Let me just say that I believe Jesus to be divine, but not based solely on His being wise. That's, to be frank, idiotic.

When I say that I believe Jesus is wise I am not trying to "trick" anyone into admitting that. In fact I thought most people would admit that and the point I wanted to make (given in the above section) would be made and that would be that. I'm not trying to con anyone at all; as many infidels (none of you clearly) already do believe Jesus to be a wise man. Their belief that Jesus was wise does not at all disqualify or diminish their stance as an infidel whatsoever. It amazes me that so many in here don't believe Jesus to even be wise. When I define Jesus to be wise I do it based on His actions, and mainly the words He spoke, which I believe to convey His wisdom, in an intangible way. For instance, a few years back there was a TV special about an unbelievably precocious child. This child was probably about 11 or 12 and was handicapped, yet he was wise way beyond his years. I heard him speak in the TV special and he read many of the things he had written and from all this I came to the conclusion that this kid was wise. He didn't go to some institution and learn all this, he just was naturaly wise. I spoke to many people after this TV special about the kid and they too were amazed by his wisdom. How did we come to the conclusion that he was wise. I can't articulate it perfectly, but there were many aspects of him and mainly the words he spoke that were filled with wisdom and insight beyond his years that led me to say he was a wise person.

Perceving wisdom is a person is somewhat ambiguous. It's like when you perceive someone to be rude and someone else really doesn't. They ask you how was he rude, and you can say well he did this and this and they might say well ehhhhhh that really isnt rude. Eventually you just say well I can't really explain it but it was rude to me. So if someone doesn't believe Jesus to be wise, yes it is shocking to be that someone would believe that, but it is somewhat of an subjective perception. So, if you have read the gospels and are still asking me for proof of Jesus' wisdom then nothing I bring to your attention is going to change that and we will just have to disagree on that issue.

Yeah, I know 5 paragraphs!! Forgive my lengthy reply.

Amaleq13

I wasn't going to post a reply but then I noticed I only needed one more post to have 1400 and the OCD kicked in and I couldn't just leave with it that close to a round number.

Not Registered,


It seems odd to me that you would choose to reply to those who did not attempt to comply with your OP while ignoring those who did.

Those of us who were willing to accept, for the sake of the argument, your offered assumption, still had questions about your apparent amazement.

If I may paraphrase for the bunch:

What, specifically, makes the wisdom Jesus exhibits in the Gospel stories significantly superior to the wisdom exhibited by figures in other texts written prior to or contemporary with the Gospel stories (eg Jewish Wisdom literature, Cynic sages)?

seeker

I've read the gospels through pretty thoroughly. While I'll admit that being an atheist I have a bias in my view of them I still must say that I don't recall anything that Jesus does in them to be particularly wise. What specific example would you consider to be one of his wisdom?

Since I haven't seen any of the previous discussions youve had here with other 'infidels ' I can only speculate. My speculation is that they were saying that Jesus actions were at best the actions of a wise man, Again that is just my guess based on the context you refer to.

Even admitting Jesus to be wise what is wisdom? The dictionary gives us the following 'the trait of utilizing knowledge and experience with common sense and insight'. Wisdom then is independant of how much knowledge or experience a person has, it has more to do with how that knowledge and/or experience is applied. As such it wouldn't matter what Jesus circumstance was.


I agree but again a person who is uneducated can be wise, as I explained above. That is not a particularly unique trait.

Which brings us back to the question of what specific examples do you consider to display his wisdom

Sven

If I might add another paraphrased question:
Why to you ascribe the "wiseness" to Jesus instead of to the gospel writers?

Cynthia of Syracuse

I think you'll find that a lot of people who use the term "wise man", "wisdom teacher", or "sage" in this context are using it as a term in the nature of a job description, rather than as a comment on the quality of Jesus' putative teachings. Performance rating in that position is an entirely separate issue.
Perhaps the fact above above will clear up some of the confusion.

Cubeless Academian

The infidel position is that Jesus was just a man (for most infidels, anyway; some claim that he never existed at all). Some concede that he was a wise man, but his wisdom is certainly not part of the argument against his divinity. People can have differing opinions on how wise Jesus was without undermining the case that he was just a man.

And no one is calling Jesus an average Joe. Obviously, he was one of the most influential people in history. But there are lots of different ways of being extraordinary and influential. "Either he was wise or he was just an average Joe" is a flase dichotomy. I don't think V. I. Lenin was particularly wise, but I certainly don't think he was average either.

It was a natural assumption for us to make. The question "How was Jesus so wise?" is a strange one. It's not really something you can answer. How was Socrates so wise? He just was. Some people are wise. That's about all you can say. The fact that you were even asking the question implied that you expected some concrete answer, like "He was God."

I agree. But, to be frank, it's not unusual for people to have idiotic reasons for believing in Jesus' divinity.

I'm not asking for proof. Obviously that's impossible. Wisdom is hard to pin down. Examples would still be nice, though. What teachings or incidents stand out to you and make you say, "Wow, this guy was really wise"? Once you bring them to my attention, it's quite possible that I'll agree with you.

To be honest, it's hard for me to judge Jesus' wisdom because sooo many of his sayings have since become cliches, and that affects my perception of them. I have the same problem with Shakespeare.