spin

It's good that judge has entered the ballpark. He has now started to understand the problem regarding linking the eclipse to the wrong Matthias. But first, let me give judge a translation that was made less than 50 years ago by Ralph Marcus:

Herod then deposed Matthias from the high priesthood. As for the other Matthias, who stirred up the sedition, he burnt him alive along with some of his companions. And on the same night there was an eclipse of the moon.

We read that the eclipse was on the same day as the second Matthias was executed, but for some reason judge's source wants all that to have been on the same day. I wonder why.
You might want this to be the case, judge, but sadly Josephus doesn't say that. He just says that on the same night as the day when the other Matthias was executed there was an eclipse. For your source to have any meaning, they have to insist that Matthias the high priest was deposed on the same day that the other was executed. Too bad text doesn't say it.

Another issue is the fast. judge's source says that the fast must have been Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, which was on the 10th of Tishri, but just a week befopre there was another fast, the fast of Gedaliah on the 3rd of Tishri. Then there's the fast of Esther on the 13th of Adar or the fast of the 17th of Tammuz, but the fast that Josephus must have meant was naturally the one most convenient for our apologetic sources.

Wrong Matthias, no indication which fast Josephus was actually talking about, you can make the text say whatever you want if you have a perverse will.


spin

judge

I quoted Josephus before and here are his words again..

One Matthias is executed in realtion to this action and the other is deposed. Both in relation to the same action.
We don't know 100% they must have happened in the same day or hour but the indication is they were concurrent. Trying to move them a little wont help you anyway.



It seems you still failed to read the article now, before commenting. We have independent evidence as to what feast day it was, it was the day of atonement.

Notice the portion I have emboldened

*Horayoth, 12b; Yoma 12b; Megilla 9b.

Sept the 15th 5BCE does not work.

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

This discussion from page 4 of the
'Critique of Richard Carrier 'Date of the Nativity'
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=199008&page=4
would seem to better placed here .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge Luke makes no mention of a taxation just an enrollment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13 It does in the version praxeus accepts but that is only because the enrollment when Quirinius was governor was for the purposes of taking an accounting of Archelaus' former domain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge Well..dont mention the peshitta If that ever gets accepted it will positively nail shut the case against taxation .. we wont mention my preferred version. Luke2 and Acts5

Amaleq is right that the words "should be taxed" and "this taxing" are in the King James Bible.

Luke 2:1-2
And it came to pass in those days,
that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus,
that all the world should be taxed. *
(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
*taxed: or, enrolled

And Judge is right that it is not in the Peshitta translations.

Two points.

a) There is no direct warrant for "only because the enrollment when Quirinius was governor" above by Amaleq. That is simply an expression of his own assumptions as to when and why.

b) There can be a long path from a decree to be taxed until an actual taxation, the taking of monies. Various steps can be involved. And it is a big world, and things happen.

To give a simple example. Various government agencies and legislatures 'decree' sales tax on internet interstate purchases and services. However in many cases no tax monies have been collected. Courts can intervene, the decree can be rescinded or nullified or delayed. A taxing decree is not the same as its monetary execution.

Historically we see that the Quirinius taxation was of special note, a watershed moment, in 1st-century Israel. 'The taxing' (Acts 5:37) led to the issues of the yearly tribute that is an ongoing controversy in the New Testament and to the creation of the nationalist party, the Zealots, in opposition to Rome and to the rebellion of Judas of Galilee (Acts 5:37).

Shalom,
Steven Avery

judge

Well that was just a little joke to Amaleq13 :devil1:
As the peshitta is considered
a translation of the greek in most places it is not helpful or needful to bring it up... , interesting as it may be. There have been quite afew peshitta discussions here, and I have avoided using it so as not to distract us, particularly Spin and myself from examining the eclipse.

You are probably unaware , Prax, about these earlier discussions.... ..they have been vigorous at times.

I think that thus far the eclipse evidence indicates that there can only be one date for the death of Herod, that being 1BCE.

Steven Avery

Ok, I agree that it is a Greek translation, and have been active in those discussions elsewhere. Much like an early church writer it can supply a window on how a word was understood in ancient times (2nd to 4th century, except for the 5 books). And the text is largely Byzantine rather than the modern version alexandrian text.

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge I think that thus far the eclipse evidence indicates that there can only be one date for the death of Herod, that being 1BCE.

Do we have a nice little summary of eclipse and Megillath Ta’anith evidences ?

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Amaleq13

What, then, was the real reason the KJV translators chose to use "taxed" here?

How is this relevant since it is the initiation of the decree in 6CE that matters while how long it took to accomplish does not?

spin

Do quote it again. It won't change anything. There is no reason to be believe from the text that Josephus tells us the high priest Matthias was dethroned on the same day as the other was executed. We are left with the other Matthias dying on the day of the eclipse, nothing more.

Can you cite these so that we know how relevant they are? There are two things that they need to show:

1. that the high priest was dethroned that day, and
2. that the fast was Yom Kippur.

I don't think they show either. We are dealing with more apologetics.


spin

spin

Wouldn't you love praxeus to deal with messages rather than trying to shoot the messenger? Yeah, I know: he can't.

Faster than a speeding Shmuel... Able to leap tall stories...

More reading skills failure on the part of praxeus. After Layman's inability to deal with the thread, I posted this, saying "While waiting for Layman to return, just a few comments." Layman had nothing more to say. Other people expressed interest.

Carrier is welcome to his opinions ("I thought Luke..."). There is a conflict between the notion of accuracy and precision. The only precision that Luke has proven capable of is getting the title "tetrarch" right. In is time frame, the mention of Philip and Herod (Antipas) is accurate, while Lysanias isn't. That Quirinius governed Syria at the time of the registration is accurate, but it isn't precision. In fact Luke is imprecise when dealing with Roman hierarchical positions.

This is still a gem (and still inaccurate):

"Lukan precision on the Roman titles and rulerships"




spin

judge

Well that's always possible. :devil1: I kinda doubt it but as I don't have access I can't prove the author was telling a bald faced lie.
Anyway I think I'll leave it here. Thanks again for the vigorous discussion Spin, I always come away from our discussions for the better.
Hope you are well.
The clouds have cleared here I might go for a swim.

Steven Avery

Hi Judge,

Yoma 12b is on the net.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t03/yom06.htm
TRACT YOMAH (DAY OF ATONEMENT).

Scan down to
"The rabbis taught: When the high-priest happened to become unfit for service"

For Megillah 9b try
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t04/meg02.htm
And scan down to "officiating high-priest".

For Horiyoth 12b
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t09/hor03.htm
And do some "high-priest" scans.

This was a quick check. If helpful I can check Soncino for you later, Sunday, where the chapters are laid out precisely. The difference is likely small. Rodkinson abridges some.

Shalom shabbat,
Steven