storytime

I've enjoyed it Steve. Thank you.

sschlichter

well, you quoted Gen 15:6, Abraham beleived God. Abraham beleived what? It does not just say he beleived in a God. He beleived what God said. What did God say?

No, you do not understand what faith is. It is the object of faith that is at issue. Those who are justified before God are justifed by their faith IN the work of Christ on the cross. Faith needs an object. It is the object that determines whether faith is warranted or useful.

The law is still at work in those that do not believe. their faith is in their own ability to fulfill the law or their faith is in the fact that their is no law or no God. It is the object of faith that will determine what is right, not the faith or even the amount of faith.

Do you now see that Jesus is very relevant?

~Steve

aa5874

Your description of FAITH appears to be erroneous and puzzlingly ambiguous.

Faith is describe in the NT.

Hebrews 11.1 Faith is based on HOPE and NO evidence.

And, Abraham did not need Jesus, just FAITH.

sschlichter

Why not just read the text, understand it, and then disagree with it. Why do you need to change the obvious meaning.

as in every conversation I have ever had with you, you ignore any attempt to look deeper. What did God tell Abraham that prompted his response of beleif? What did God promise Eve? Same promise, Same object of faith. Just answer the question and then disagree with my interpretation. If you feel the need to always obfuscate, it appears like a weak argument that you do not even beleive yourself but just want to be true.

There is little reason to point this out because your bad interpretation is intentional but Heb 11 says that faith is the evidence of things unseen, not NO evidence. For example, I have not seen you but I have evidence that you exist. I have not seen the wind, but I have evidence that it exists. I cannot see electricity, but I have evidence it exists. I have not seen the God the Father, but I have evidence he exists. I have not seen Jesus but I have evidence he exists. I have not seen the Holy Spirit but I have evidence he exists.

~Steve

aa5874

So why did you ignore the first part of Hebrews 11.1?

Now, if you have evidence of my existence, then you do not HOPE for my existence, you say I exist.

On the contrary, If you have NOT seen any evidence of my existence, then you can only HOPE I exist.

If you have seen the evidence that the wind exist, then you do not HOPE for the wind, you say the wind exists.

And on the contrary, if you have NOT seen the evidence that wind exist, you can only HOPE wind exists.

If you have seen the evidence for electricity, then you do not HOPE for electricity, you say electricity exists.

Again, if you have NOT seen any evidence of electricity, then you can only HOPE electricity exists.

Now you have no evidence for God the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, you only HOPE for evidence, or HOPE that what you have SEEN and call evidence for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not evidence for something else unknown to you.

It is almost certain that what you have seen and call evidence for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is seen as evidence for some other Gods or Spirits by some other persons.

Faith is based on HOPE and no SEEN evidence.

sschlichter

No, you are confusing evidence with proof. I only have evidence God exists and that he rewards those who seek him. I do not have proof that he exists.

I do not have proof you exist. You could be a composite of 6 different people that share a moniker. You could be a computer program that spits out illogical assumptions every once in a while. Who knows, but I have only evidence that you exist, no proof.

The HOPE is not related to the evidence. The hope is for what is promised by the one I have evidence for. I have no hope that you exist because you have not promised to reward those who seek you and you have not given sufficient evidence to prove you are capable of the kind of reward I seek.

(although, on a personal note, I certainly hope you are well. ).

Once again, what was Abraham promised that caused him to believe and be justified. What did the same author say was promised to Eve? You must have a Bible, you quoted from Gen 15:6. What is in the verses prior, my friend?

~Steve

aa5874

You are the one who do not understand that PROOF is synonymous with EVIDENCE.

Please check a dictionary.

It is completely contradictory to claim you have evidence but still have no proof. You are admitting that your evidence is bogus since your evidence proves nothing.


Now, I HOPE you see that you are admitting that your evidence of my existence is extremely weak, you really don't know if aa5874 exists?

In your previous post you claim you had evidence that I exist, now you are not really sure if I am a computer program or a six persons.

Jesus may have been 14 characters.

This is hopeless.

In your previous post you claim that I exist, now you are claiming you have no HOPE that I exist because I did not promise you a reward.

Well since neither electricity or the wind will ever promise you anything, there is no HOPE they will ever exist.

sschlichter

I have all the evidence I need that you exist for having a conversation. If you ask me to send you money, then I probably will require more evidence.

evidence:

that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof

proof:

evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

evidence, as I am using it tends toward proof. Proof is sufficent evidence to establish a thing as true.


The word in Hebrews 1 refers to being confident in that thing you do not see. I am condfident that the God, which I cannot see will redeem me in the end. that is what he is saying. IT DOES NOT SAY that even though their is no reason to beleive God exists, I sure hope he does.

wind and electricy have sufficient evidence to be accepted as true for the purpose that they serve. It powers the things in my house and I pay a bill. If i touch the wrong combinations of wires, it hurts. I have no hope in it but that has nothing to do with its existence or the evidence of its existince.

Abraham?? what was he promised? Do you need me to supply the verse for you? What was Eve promised?

aa5874

Now, if you want to send some money to Jesus, like other believers, how do you get evidence to do that?

So, as I told you before, Proof is synonymous with Evidence. You erred greatly when you claimed you have evidence but no proof.


You have lost me again. You cannot be confident about anything if you cannot find proof or evidence that would reasonably make you confident about some expectation.



Hebrews 11.1 surely says," faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen," and you have NOT seen God, all you really have is HOPE that your God exists.

You sure HOPE he does.

And what things are powered by your God, Jesus and Holy Spirit?

The things called HOPE and FAITH.

sschlichter

I do, but I require massive amounts of evidence that the money I send goes to the poor or the needy as I am commanded to care for them. I do not find anyone on television that meets that criteria, if that is what you are getting at.


fine, then substitite in this conversation everywhere I used the word evidence with 'tending toward proof'.

I am confident that you exist, however I do not care if it is true or not so I have no hope associated with your existence. The reason I think you exist is because I have emails from you and they all are just as annoying as the last one. The arguments in them lack support consistently and they all ignore any facts on an issue that do not support the unsubstantiated claims that you make. This tends toward proof of your existence.

I can surmise that God exists thru multiple philosophical arguments. I can see his effects on nature and the universe. I can guess as to some of his attributes by looking at creation. I, like nearly all of humanity expect he is a loving God. I beleive he clarifed and revealed himself, the nature of mans' predicament, and his plan to fix it in the Bible. I see a promise made to Eve, Abraham, his descendants, and his people. The promises contain prophecies and oracles which when fulfilled provide evidence. I see Christ fulfilled much of those prophecies and his apostles who struggled to spread the news of Christ and his fulfillment of prophecy, themselves fulfilling the very promise made to Abraham to bless the world by carrying this message to the point of death. I have personal experiences that attest and confirm the presence of God in my life and in those around me. This tends toward proof and I have confidence that it is true. On top of that, I hope it is true which unrelated to the weight of the evidence.

I will assume at this point that you know what Abraham was promised and since it does not support your argument, you refuse to discuss it. On that note, I do not see any reason to continue arguing about this trivia when you will not discuss in any depth your original argument.

Instead, I will just agree with you. Yes, Hope, and Faith - I can only pray that I am as guilty of those as you claim me to be.

~Steve