Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Y.B · 01-24-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaupoline

If the Eastern religions oppose abortion as well as the Abrahamics, which group actually believes that abortion is good? Is it only the atheists?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

EverLastingGodStopper · 01-24-2005, 03:36 PM

Who feels that abortion is not bad? I feel that abortion is not bad. I feel that it's a good thing, a necessary thing, and not a bad thing at all. Lots of people agree with me, lots of people disagree. Whoopity doopity. Women who find themselves pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant will find a way to end the pregnancy if they can. Abortions have always been performed, throughout history, they just haven't always been as safe or as legal as they are in the US now. (And they're getting less and less legal every day, it seems.)

funinspace · 01-24-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaupoline

If the Eastern religions oppose abortion as well as the Abrahamics, which group actually believes that abortion is good? Is it only the atheists?

Not particularly.

Do you think getting angry at someone cutting you off on the road (with no hostile action taken on your part) is the same as murder in terms of ethics/morals/sin?

Oresta · 01-24-2005, 05:07 PM

The Bible makes no mention of abortion, pro, con or simply in passing. Abrahamic religions, all based entirely or in part on The Bible, have come to their respective positions on the practice for reasons posted by mrzyphl, as quoted in this post's title.

Capybara · 01-24-2005, 05:38 PM

Check out the website: http://imnotsorry.net/

It's full of the testimonials of women who probably won't agree the abortion is the most enjoyable thing in the world, but are damn glad they had the option available.

I believe the site was started by a woman who was sick of hearing the whole fiction that abortion is always an emotionally damaging, traumatic event. For many women it's not; should they feel guilty that they don't feel guilty?

Avatar · 01-24-2005, 06:27 PM

A dear friend of mine had to have an abortion...Edmund's syndrome. The fetus was so malformed that the baby (a girl) would have died within hours of birth. There was also a great risk to the mother. The abortion was performed as a nessecity. Many anti-abortion loons would happily have demanded that the birth take place anyway...maybe they think that enough prayer would have fixed the problem. :angry:

Jack the Bodiless · 01-25-2005, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oresta

The Bible makes no mention of abortion, pro, con or simply in passing. Abrahamic religions, all based entirely or in part on The Bible, have come to their respective positions on the practice for reasons posted by mrzyphl, as quoted in this post's title.

Technically, you are correct. The only early Christian document I've ever heard of that specifically mentions (and condems) abortion is the Didache, which modern Christians consider "non-canonical".

However, the Bible's teachings strongly imply a "pro-abortion" stance. To quote myself on a recent thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

"Aborting babies is killing and anyone that does it is a murderer."

This doctrine is not Biblical.

...Which wouldn't bother a "liberal" Christian (and especially not a Catholic: abortion is wrong because the Pope says so). But it should be a problem for a Calvinist, as the whole point of Calvinism is maximal compatibility with the Bible.

The Bible is clear on this: an assault on a pregnant woman which causes her to miscarry isn't murder unless the woman dies.

God is also an abortionist himself, in passages such as Hosea 9:11 and 9:14. And the God-ordained procedure for dealing with a wife suspected of adultery seems very much like the administration of an abortifacient, and certainly wouldn't be healthy for any fetus she might have been carrying (Numbers 5:11-31).

The very tenuous argument made by "pro-life" Christians is that God can supposedly see his Elect in the womb, implying that they are persons. However, every Calvinist should know that the Bible says God can see his Elect from the beginning of time. Jewish tradition is that ensoulment occurs when the baby draws its first breath, and this is the Biblical view (references to the "breath of life", such as God breathing life into Adam).

Oresta · 01-25-2005, 04:54 AM

Thanks for the references. I had never heard of the Didarche before. I'll take a closer look at the links for it I've googled.

Chaupoline · 01-25-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuvar Ane Ingolenen

I don't think you are a simpleton. But I am curious why you posted the way you did. The answers from others seem rather obvious to me, you must have thought of them yourself. So what did you really want to know?

I asked on the Non-Abe section if a belief in reincarnation coincided with it being OK to have a abortion. If the soul was just going to get recycled why would it matter. Just about every post stated that it was a horrible thing and the woman that recieved the abortion would recieve bad karma. I personally like abortion. I think more people should get abortions but nobody likes it. We know that the Non-Abes hate it and the Abes obviously despise it. Why would anyone even want a abortion then if everyone believes that there is a negative religious overtone? That is why I was wondering if the main supporter of abortion was atheists. The two schools of thought for the reasons of abortion are medical complications for the mother during childbirth or an unwanted pregnancy. Both are selfish reasons. I agree with both, but they are both selfish reasons. The mother chooses her own life over the life of her child in both cases. I feel that she shouldn't be a mother if she would actually want a abortion, therefore I agree with the idea of abortions. Wearing a shirt that says, "I got a Abortion," on the front should say on the back, "I am self centered."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple Six

Abortion can be the best or necessary option without ever being "good" in the sense that anybody gets any pleasure for it. And women are often put in a situation where abortion becomes an option thanks to the wilful ignorance and lies spread by theists regarding sex education and contraception.

I agree. Abstinence would actually prevent unwanted pregnancies. But I would rather have sex. I am selfish like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar

A dear friend of mine had to have an abortion...Edmund's syndrome. The fetus was so malformed that the baby (a girl) would have died within hours of birth. There was also a great risk to the mother. The abortion was performed as a nessecity. Many anti-abortion loons would happily have demanded that the birth take place anyway...maybe they think that enough prayer would have fixed the problem. :angry:

I was wrong, there is a third reason and you nailed it perfectly. If the child would have some kind of genetic defect such as Edmunds or Downes Syndrome this would be perfectly justified. The child and the parents would both suffer because of this. Again abortion would be justified. The parent is still selfish but who can blame her. Who would want to have to deal with this situation. I am sure that the mother would be sad regardless though. Abortions are always a sad occasion. I can't get an abortion myself, but if I could, I would. I guess I am selfish too.

EverLastingGodStopper · 01-25-2005, 08:14 AM

That's because I'm WAY more important than some 2-inch fetus that nobody even knows about.

01-24-2005, 05:07 PM	#24
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	mrzyphl: Abortion is neither Good or Bad. It's purely political. The Bible makes no mention of abortion, pro, con or simply in passing. Abrahamic religions, all based entirely or in part on The Bible, have come to their respective positions on the practice for reasons posted by mrzyphl, as quoted in this post's title.

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01-24-2005, 03:36 PM	#22
EverLastingGodStopper Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16,665	Who feels that abortion is not bad? I feel that abortion is not bad. I feel that it's a good thing, a necessary thing, and not a bad thing at all. Lots of people agree with me, lots of people disagree. Whoopity doopity. Women who find themselves pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant will find a way to end the pregnancy if they can. Abortions have always been performed, throughout history, they just haven't always been as safe or as legal as they are in the US now. (And they're getting less and less legal every day, it seems.)

01-24-2005, 05:38 PM	#25
Capybara Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Brooklyn, New York Posts: 238	Check out the website: http://imnotsorry.net/ It's full of the testimonials of women who probably won't agree the abortion is the most enjoyable thing in the world, but are damn glad they had the option available. I believe the site was started by a woman who was sick of hearing the whole fiction that abortion is always an emotionally damaging, traumatic event. For many women it's not; should they feel guilty that they don't feel guilty?

01-24-2005, 06:27 PM	#26
Avatar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 2,817	A dear friend of mine had to have an abortion...Edmund's syndrome. The fetus was so malformed that the baby (a girl) would have died within hours of birth. There was also a great risk to the mother. The abortion was performed as a nessecity. Many anti-abortion loons would happily have demanded that the birth take place anyway...maybe they think that enough prayer would have fixed the problem. :angry:

01-25-2005, 04:54 AM	#28
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	Thanks for the references. I had never heard of the Didarche before. I'll take a closer look at the links for it I've googled.

01-25-2005, 08:14 AM	#30
EverLastingGodStopper Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16,665	That's because I'm WAY more important than some 2-inch fetus that nobody even knows about.

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