Amaleq13

What is your evidence for this "custom"?

RUmike

Can you name critically trained biblical scholars who agree with you? Probably not, because this is sheer speculation on your part, with no support from the text whatsoever. This doesn't mean it can't be true, but there is no evidence to support it.

Diogenes the Cynic

Richbee, please do not post long excerpts of off-board material without proper attribution and quote tags. If you want to link to another site, that's fine, but only quote a small sample and provide a link to the rest.

It's also considered bad form around here to post an argument consisting only of quoted material from someone else. If you have an argument to make, make it yourself. Please do not simply cut and paste from other websites without adding any original thoughts of your own.

Thank you,
DtC, Moderator, BC&H

Richbee

The Old Testament.

Richbee

Here is a slightly different refutation, and I will post this for reasonable observers:

Look into the 1874 classic An Examination of the Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible - by John W. Haley, or the more recent Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties - by Gleason L. Archer (Zondervan).

For something to be a contradiction, there cannot be any possible reconciliation. Several viable explanations are possible, such as this one suggested by Gleason L. Archer:

Quote:

Matthew 1:1-16 gives the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, who was himself a descendant of King David. As Joseph’s adopted Son, Jesus became his legal heir, so far as his inheritance was concerned....

Luke 3:23-28, on the other hand, seems to record the genealogical line of Mary herself.... This seems to be implied by the wording of v. 23:

“Jesus. . . being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph?

Christian tradition teaches and the NT reveals that Jesus was not really the biological son of Joseph,. . . Mary. . . must of necessity have been the sole human parent through whom Jesus could have descended from a line of ancestors. Her genealogy is thereupon listed, starting with Heli, who was actually Joseph’s father-in-law, in contradistinction to Joseph’s own father, Jacob (Matt. 1:16.... Therefore Jesus was descended from David naturally through Nathan and legally through Solomon."

Amaleq13

How tiresome.

Please provide specific references supporting your claim.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Richbee: Since Christians cannot reasonably prove that Mary or Joseph were from the house of David, what difference do genealogies make?

Diogenes the Cynic

Chapter and verse?
This is factually incorrect. Under Jewish law, royal inheritance cannot be passed on by adoption. In particular, the heir to the throne of David (i.e. the Messiah) MUST be a direct patrilinear descendant of David. Adoption doesn't count. The mother doesn't count.
How does that remotely imply that Luke was tracing a bloodline through Mary? All it shows is that Luke wanted to claim that Joseph was not Jesus' biological father. At best, Luke is claiming that Jesus was an heir through adoption (which means he's no heir at all). Even if Luke were tracing Mary's genealogy (which he wasn't. There was no custom of tracing a woman's bloodline through her husband), it still wouldn't matter because Royal succession cannot go through the mother.

One more time: The Messiah MUST be a direct patrilnear (biological) descendant of David Adoption doesn't count. The mother doesn't count.

hayahtowb

The Two Genealogies Of Matthew 1. And Luke 3.

“ THE BOOK OF THE GENERATION OF JESUS CHRIST ” (THE MESSIAH)

GOD
1. Adam, the natural legal line (“seed of the woman” ) according to Luke.
2. Seth
3. Enos
4. Cainan
5. Maleleel
6. Jared
7. Enoch
8. Mathusala
9. Lamech
10. Noe
11. Sem
12. Arphaxad
[Cainan] * Undoubtedly an interpolation in certain copies of the Septuagint towards the close of the Fourth Cent. A.D. “ The evidence against his existence is to the utmost possible degree, clear, full, and positive, and not liable to any mistake or perversion. On the contrary, the evidence for his existence is inferential, obscure, or open to the suspicion of falsification.” LORD A. Hervey, The genealogies of our Lord, ch.8 p.195 13.Sala
14. Heber
15. Phalec
16. Ragau
17. Saruch
18. Nachor
19. Thara
20. Abraham ------------------------------- 1. Abraham, is the start of the, Regal legal line (“ The Throne of His father David “), and the 1st fourteen lay generations/ according to Matthew.
21. Isaac ---------------------------------- 2. Isaac
22. Jacob----------------------------------- 3. Jacob
23. Judas----------------------------------- 4. Judas
24. Phares---------------------------------- 5. Phares
25. Esrom----------------------------------- 6. Esrom
26. Aram------------------------------------ 7. Aram
27. Aminadad-------------------------------- 8. Aminadad
28. Naasson--------------------------------- 9. Naasson
29. Salmon--------------------------------- 10. Salmon
30. Booz------------------------------------ 11. Booz
31. Obed----------------------------------- 12. Obed
32. Jesse-----------------------------------13. Jesse
33. David----------------------------------- 14. *David, the king in Hebron (2nd Samuel 2.4-11) ends the 1st fourteen lay generations.

*-----------------------------------------1. *David, the king over all Israel (2nd Samuel 5.4) Is the start of the 2nd fourteen Regal generations.

35. Mattatha --------------------------------2. Solomon (eldest surviving son of Bathsheba)
36. Men------------------------------------ 3. Roboam
37. Melea------------------------------------ 4. Abia
38. Eliakim----------------------------------- 5. Asa
39. Jonan-------------------------------------6. Josaphat
40. Joseph------------------------------------7. Joram the son-in-law of Ahab “died of sore diseases”,
[Ahaziah] his son (called “son-in-law of the house of Ahab”
2nd Kings 8.27) and [Joash] his grandson, and [Amaziah] his
great-grandson - all died violent deaths.
41. Juda ------------------------------- Ahaziah was slain by Jehu (2nd Kings 9.27).
42. Simeon ---------------------Joash was slain by his servants (2nd Kings 12.20).
43. Levi --- Amaziah was slain by the people of Jerusalem ((2nd Kings 14.19).
Thus GOD’s “visiting” for the idolatry was fulfilled literally “to the Third
and Fourth generation” (Exodus 20.4-5). Their names were therefore
[“blotted out” ] according to Law (Deuteronomy 29.20)

44. Matthat------------------------------------- 8. Ozias
45. Jorim---------------------------------------- 9. Joatham
46. Eliza --------------------------------------- 10. Achaz
47. Jose --------------------------------------- 11. Ezekias
48. Er--------------------------------- ---------12.Manasses
49.Elmodam----------------------- -------------13. Amon
50. Cosam------------------------------------- 14. Josias ends the 2nd fourteen Regal generations.
Both Jehoiakim and his son Jechoniah are alike omitted from the regal 14 generations for, first, the paramount reason that the kingdom as an independent kingdom ended with the death of Joash at Megiddo when Juda passed under the power of Egypt, and ultimately Babylon; and secondly, in the case of Jehoiakim for “that which was found on him” ((2nd Chronicles 36.8) tattooed with idolatrous marks or signs forbidden by Leviticus 19.28), and in that of Jechoniah for the reasons given in Jeremiah 22.24-30. Their names are thus also blotted out according to Law.

51. Addi
52.Melchi
53.Neri--------------------------------------- 1. Jechonias, is the start of the 3rd fourteen lay generations.
54. Salathiel---------------------------------- 2. Salathiel
55. Zorobabel--------------------------------- 3. Zorobabel
56. Resa* *It is held by some that Resa is not a proper name, but a title applying to Zorobabel. But the case is “not proven”.
57. Joanna------------------------------------ 4.Abiud
58. Juda--------------------------------------- 5. Eliakim
59. Joseph------------------------------------ 6. Azor
60. Semei ------------------------------------ 7. Sadoc
61. Mattathias--------------------------------- 8. Achim
62. Maath------------------------------------- 9. Eliud

63. Nagge------------------------------------ 10. Eleazar
64. Esli--------------------------------------- 11. Matthan
66. Amos------------------------------------- 12. Jacob
67. Mattathias-------------------------------- 13. Joseph, son reckoned “according to Law” ( hos enomizeto, Luke 3.23 ) of Heli by betrothal to Heli’s daughter; therefore (also “according to Law” compare Matthew 1.20, Luke 2.5 with Deuteronomy 22.23-24) husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus, and the end of the 3rd fourteen lay generations.68. Joseph
69. Janna
70. Melchi
71. Levi
72. Matthat
73.Heli
74.( Mary) of whom was born JESUS Who is called “Messiah” “THE SON OF ADAM (= ho huios tou anthropou) WHO WAS THE SON OF GOD.”

Note: Bold was added to the COMPANION BIBLE, appendix # 99 .


This is the "key of the house of David", the genealory of Christ, and a main theme of one of the seven churches in Revelation. The location and name of the church (Philadelphia) has changed, but not their teaching(s).

It's strange the way churches (all religions of the world fall under the scope of the seven churches in Rev.) teach, for example, this genealogy is about 6,000 yrs. old and some preachers want to make the whole of earth this age. That's wrong.

This earth is billions of years old. And this genealogy of "Adam" (Gen.2.7) is diffrent than "mankind" found in Gen.1.27, but thats for another thread. In fact, the races created in Gen.1.27 weren't born of woman, but were sons and daughters of God, making Christ, the Key to their houses as well as Davids.

The diffrence being pure, or "perfect" as in Noah's case.

I hope this helps?

JoeWallack

JW:
As near as I can tell I Am currently the World's foremost Authority on Errors in the Genealogies so I feel a moral obligation to respond.

"Mary. . . must of necessity have been the sole human parent through whom Jesus could have descended from a line of ancestors. Her genealogy is thereupon listed, starting with Heli, who was actually Joseph’s father-in-law, in contradistinction to Joseph’s own father, Jacob (Matt. 1:16...."

JW:
Luke 3: (KJV)
23..."the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

The holy KJV's Word of the Lord Explicitly says that Joseph was the son of Heli. You accept the words of men which Imply that Joseph was not the son of Heli. So you prefer the word of men to the word of God. Is this why you were banned from Tweeb?



Joseph

BIRTH, n.
The first and direst of all disasters. As to the nature of it there appears to be no uniformity. Castor and Pollux were born from the egg. Pallas came out of a skull. Galatea was once a block of stone. Peresilis, who wrote in the tenth century, avers that he grew up out of the ground where a priest had spilled holy water. It is known that Arimaxus was derived from a hole in the earth, made by a stroke of lightning. Leucomedon was the son of a cavern in Mount Aetna, and I have myself seen a man come out of a wine cellar.

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