Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 09-21-2007, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

I too have heard anectodal evidence of ministers, nuns and rabbis who believe the earth is flat in the present eras.

Here's another anecdote for your collection. The minister who converted me to Christianity when I was 12 years old was a flat-earther.

He never said so publicly to my knowledge, but he assured me in a private conversation we once had that the earth had to be flat because the Bible says it is flat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Personally, I think fundamentalism is a recent phenomenon.

It depends on how narrowly you define it. The word was coined to identify a particular set of Protestant doctrines that arose during the late 19th century. The kind of thinking with which people defend such doctrines is probably as old as humanity.

Clivedurdle · 09-22-2007, 10:43 AM

Is the taking of this the end of the dark ages?

http://education.umn.edu/History/Tim...sEarthrise.jpg

angelo · 09-23-2007, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is the taking of this the end of the dark ages?

http://education.umn.edu/History/Tim...sEarthrise.jpg

Beautiful image. I consider the dark ages to have ceased at around the industrial revolutions beginning; around the 1700 ad. Mind, some of the Muslim world, and bible belt USA, are still living in the dark ages.

Clivedurdle · 09-23-2007, 03:49 AM

It is a partly serious question (I enjoy Cheshire Cat type questions) - was labelling eras "dark ages" etc a historical habit that is now out of favour?

Was there a post modernist politically correct era in which everyone however ignorant somehow wasn't?

FGM comes to mind about that!

Remnants of progress with the reality of the concentration camps.

Let me attempt a summary.

Centralised societies with clear evidence of economic growth, literacy and some to us nasty institutions like slavery and the games, gave way to major economic recession in some areas of the planet. Other areas went along much as before.

In a Western European perspective there were therefore dark ages that were pretty dark. When did we reach Roman levels of economic activity again? I would have thought possibly not until the 1600's.

We have now huge variations in wealth and education across the planet - some societies do seem to be using lite versions of Hitlerian propaganda methods to assert they are better than they really are, and are possibly not helping build common wealth.- we have dark age thinking in various places.

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa011201a.htm

Amedeo · 09-25-2007, 08:29 PM

MORE 13TH CENTURY DARKNESS.... up your alley, Anacletus

http://www.donmeh-west.com/treatise.shtml

Quote:

COMMENTARY ON THE 13TH CENTURY "TREATISE ON THE LEFT EMANATION"
by
Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain, Founder & Spiritual Director
DONMEH WEST
[Passages from the copyrighted translation of "Treatise on the Left Emanation" quoted with the kind permission of its translator, Professor Ronald C. Kiener, as published in The Early Kabbalah, New York: Paulist Press, 1986]

Rabbis Jacob and Isaac ha-Kohain were both members of the Pre-Zoharic, early school of Kabbalah in the second half of the 13th century. Here I comment on the first two lessons from R. Isaac's most important work, Treatise on the Left Emanation, with particular reference to their implications for own "Yalhakian" Neo-Sabbatian Kabbalah.

Treatise on the Left Emanation: Part 1

I have noted your tremendous desire to ascend to the ladder of wisdom and perceive enigmas and grasp the cunning ways of the ancient Sages, the masters of inscriptions, those who expounded upon the secrets of the souls. And having noted that the Lord God, may He be blessed, bestowed upon you an attentive and understanding heart, I have decided with much fondness to answer your question and fulfill your request.
I will do this for you even though you are quite aware that this path was not trod upon except for "two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough" (Isaiah 17:6) -- these are the ancient elders, the scholars of Spain who delved in the palace of Samael. It is a long and deep path and it eludes all masters of wisdom of the hidden emanation, the "depth of good and the depth of evil." (Sefer Yetzirah 1:4) It is known only to those few solitary individuals, "the remnant who the Lord shall call" (Joel 3:5). Moreover, to the best of my ability I will not stray my steps from the path in order to grant your wish and quench a bit of your thirst. May His most beloved assist me in His mercy and.........
..........................................

Amedeo · 10-02-2007, 04:25 PM

RENOVATION [mentioned earlier] during the upper Middle Ages -- especially in Italy Flanders, and France.
This Renovation was due mainly to the rise of craftsmen and commerce, so that a new class of people arose: the bourgeosie, distinct from the subjects of the feudal lords and of the clergy.

As this book review points out, Le Goff's "Time, Work, and Culture in the Middle Ages" pivots in fact on the social order and classes of people. (Elsewhere I learned of his long stays in Italy, in the company of Italian historians, who revealed unto him the mercantile side of the upper middle Ages. I myself have already spoken of the rise of republics and free Communes in Italy, etc. etc., which were preconditions for the rise of the cultural Renaissance.)

http://www.abduct.com/shopaaer/us/pr...0226470814.htm

Quote:

A selection of product reviews

The rise of oratores, bellatores, and laboratores....

For a number of years, historians of various backgrounds have attempted to conceptually and operationally define the "Middle Ages." In 'Time, Work, and Culture in the Middle Ages' Jacques Le Goff, a top French Historian outlines his perspective via a collection of essays he developed on this subject over several years.

Le Goff suggests the modern historian should use the techniques of the ethnographer, the findings of archeologists, and the records of courts, commerce, and confessor's manuals to construct the everyday world of the inhabitants of Europe during the Middle Ages. He says he is not going to try to turn the Dark Ages into the Golden Ages, and he is not operating without a theory since that is virtually impossible--in spite of the claims to the contrary by some modern theorists. As he mentions the 'division of labor' in several contexts, I imagine he is following social theories outlined by 20th Century French historians such as Durkheim, Mauss, and Bloch.

Le Goff sets about untangling a story he says began with the fall of the Roman Empire and ended with the Industrial Age ('Longue duree' of Fernand Braudel). He seems to view the Renaissance and Reformation as the natural culmination of forces that arose during the Middle Ages: the division of labor and the division of time.

Le Goff says much evidence suggests a tripartite society arose in the 900s and gained ascendency by the 1200s. This society was composed of: oratores (clergy), bellatores (warriors), and laboratores (workers). Fortunately or unfortunately, the division of society did not end with three groups. He says the Middle Ages involved two major processes: the division of labor and the division of time, and that these two processes were inseparable.

Le Goff spends much time discussing the laboratores and how their work day, which was once measured as sun-up to sun-down (God's time as depicted in the "Book of Months") came to be measured and paid in hourly rates as the result of the growing power of commercial interests. The land-based wealth of the feudal lords and their peasant farmer tenants was subverted by commercial practices that ultimately exploited and alienated the artisan workers. These alienated workers later grew in power and became involved in peasant revolutions and other disruptive activities.

The sections of Le Goff's essays that most fascinated me described the rise of church power at the expense of the "old" religion of the common people. During the Middle Ages, the Church acquired enormous power. The clergy (oratores) were mostly monastics and penitents to begin with, but with the rise of commerce and trade, many of them became mendicants and secular scholars. These scholars lay the groundwork for the reformation and renaissance.

But before the church splintered into the hundreds of protestant groups that came into existence following the reformation, it managed to subdue many of the common folk beliefs. Of particular fascination to me was the recorded history of the demise of the dragon who went from noble beast in the old religion to maligned serpent killed by saints in the new religion. Another section that fascinated me involved the witch. Citing 'La Sorciere' by Michelet, Le Goff says he thought the witch was "productive because she gave birth to modern science....While the clergy and the schoolman were mired in the world of imitation, bloatedness, sterility, and anti-nature, the witch was redicovering nature, the body, mind, medicine, ......"

.....................

Mike PSS · 10-02-2007, 04:48 PM

And the dark ages continue even in the 21st Century.

Pie Iesu Domine.
Dona Eis Requiem.
<*thud*>

ericmurphy · 10-02-2007, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike PSS

And the dark ages continue even in the 21st Century.

Pie Iesu Domine.
Dona Eis Requiem.
<*thud*>

Bring out your dead!

angelo · 10-03-2007, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericmurphy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike PSS

And the dark ages continue even in the 21st Century.

Pie Iesu Domine.
Dona Eis Requiem.
<*thud*>

Bring out your dead!

Anyone fancy going out on a witch hunt?
I'm sure their to blame for this climate we are experiancing in the world at present. :Cheeky:

Toto · 10-03-2007, 12:31 PM

A few disruptive posts were split off here

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09-22-2007, 10:43 AM	#332
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Is the taking of this the end of the dark ages? http://education.umn.edu/History/Tim...sEarthrise.jpg

09-23-2007, 03:49 AM	#334
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	It is a partly serious question (I enjoy Cheshire Cat type questions) - was labelling eras "dark ages" etc a historical habit that is now out of favour? Was there a post modernist politically correct era in which everyone however ignorant somehow wasn't? FGM comes to mind about that! Remnants of progress with the reality of the concentration camps. Let me attempt a summary. Centralised societies with clear evidence of economic growth, literacy and some to us nasty institutions like slavery and the games, gave way to major economic recession in some areas of the planet. Other areas went along much as before. In a Western European perspective there were therefore dark ages that were pretty dark. When did we reach Roman levels of economic activity again? I would have thought possibly not until the 1600's. We have now huge variations in wealth and education across the planet - some societies do seem to be using lite versions of Hitlerian propaganda methods to assert they are better than they really are, and are possibly not helping build common wealth.- we have dark age thinking in various places. http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa011201a.htm

10-02-2007, 04:48 PM	#337
Mike PSS Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 656	And the dark ages continue even in the 21st Century. Pie Iesu Domine. Dona Eis Requiem. <thud>

10-03-2007, 12:31 PM	#340
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	A few disruptive posts were split off here

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