Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gurugeorge · 10-03-2011, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

Here is 2 Cor 5. (KJV). I have looked at a greek-English translation, but can't seem to copy and paste from it. There doesn't seem to be too many contentious items, though if anybody disagrees, I'm only using KJV out of convenience and don't mind being corrected:

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of The Messiah; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

13For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

14For the love of The Messiah constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known The Messiah after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17Therefore if any man be in The Messiah, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by The Messiah, He Who Saves, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in The Messiah, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20Now then we are ambassadors for The Messiah, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in The Messiah's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.'

How anybody gets from this that Jesus started out in an upper realm is quite beyond me. It is, in fact, entirely absent from the description, as far as I can see. Even v16, out of context, is still more indicative of an earthly reference, no matter what way you think of 'kata sarka'. And in the context of the whole chapter....

Sometimes I just scratch my head and wonder about the entire basis for Doherty's hypothesis.

In the case of Paul, he seems to have picked texts which don't involve an intermediate realm, but which do, repeatedly, seem to refer to an earthly one. Does nobody else find this flimsy? Honestly?

The problem is you're still prejudging that the referent of "Christ" is a normal human being. I've altered the passages above, substituting "The Messiah" for "Christ".

See if it reads any differently if you don't prejudge it's referring to someone personally known by anybody at the time. Try reading the referent "The Messiah" as being the same referent anyone else would have used at the time - of the mythical being that they expect to come - except "Paul" is saying that that mythical being (contrary to everyone else's expectations) has already been and gone and done his work, in a way nobody was expecting, and in a far grander manner than they had supposed

The force of "no longer according to the flesh" then precisely that he was not just some military bozo, but destroyer of death and saviour, cleanser of our sins, a fully divine being. i.e. everyone had misunderstood the character and nature of the Messiah that they were awaiting (he was a divine spiritual being, not just a fleshly king), and the time and manner of his advent.

i.e. "Paul" has had a revelation that the truth about The Messiah is different from what most people think it is.

jakejonesiv · 10-03-2011, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

How anybody gets from this that Jesus started out in an upper realm is quite beyond me.

There are texts in the Pauline corpus that can be interpreted as a heavenly origin for Jesus.

Phillipians Chapter 2:5 ... Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jake

aa5874 · 10-03-2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

... "Paul" has had a revelation that the truth about The Messiah is different from what most people think it is.

Well, let us test what you say.

1.

Galatians 4:4 -

Quote:

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law...

1 Cor.11

Quote:

For I have received of the Lord that which ALSO I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in F38 remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me....

Examine 1 Cor 15.3-4

Quote:

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I ALSO received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures...

There is really nothing special about the Pauline Jesus.

In the Gospels, Jesus was born of a woman and a Ghost, was BETRAYED in the Night after he had supped, crucified and died, was buried and resurrected on the THIRD day.

And 'Paul' even acknowledged that he used a WRITTEN source for parts of his Jesus story.

gurugeorge · 10-03-2011, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

How anybody gets from this that Jesus started out in an upper realm is quite beyond me.

There are texts in the Pauline corpus that can be interpreted as a heavenly origin for Jesus.

Phillipians Chapter 2:5 ... Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jake

Yes, and again, it's pretty obvious when you read it without the prior associations we all have:

Quote:

"The Messiah "God Saves", who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of "God Saves" EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that the Messiah "God Saves" is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The notion that this is talking about a bloke people knew personally called Joshua is toshua. It's a myth about the descent of a divine avatar into human form, and his being granted his name as a token of his task.

It's totally, obviously, absolutely and simply a revaluing of the "Messiah" concept, a new way of conceiving of the traditional "Messiah", "Anointed One", and giving him a much more exalted position than was common at the time (while also resonant with an older idea of "The Anointed One" - the Middle Eastern God-King type - as a Divine Son).

It's also playing with opposites - man/divine, bond-servant/enthroned, humbled/exalted - in a mystical way. "Dying on a cross" is part of this conceptual interplay, being the absolutely abysally humiliating opposite of "exaltation".

Picture some Monty-Python-like religious nerds arguing, "right, what's the most humiliating thing that can happen to a person!?" "Got it! Crucifixion!" "Put it in dude!"

GakuseiDon · 10-03-2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

How anybody gets from this that Jesus started out in an upper realm is quite beyond me.

There are texts in the Pauline corpus that can be interpreted as a heavenly origin for Jesus.

Phillipians Chapter 2:5 ... Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Where is the heavenly origin for Jesus in Phil 2? Christ being in the form of God? The idea that man is in the image of God is an old motif.

James 3:9 for example has:

9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness.

Also, 1 Cor 11:7:

For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

aa5874 · 10-03-2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

....Picture some Monty-Python-like religious nerds arguing, "right, what's the most humiliating thing that can happen to a person!?" "Got it! Crucifixion!" "Put it in dude!"

The Pauline writings are NOT any mysteries at all.

"Paul" is claiming to be a WITNESS of the resurrected Jesus that he FOUND in WRITTEN sources.

There is absolutely no need for all those convolutions and unsubstantiated INVENTIONS

The Jesus story is PURE MYTH and HISTORICISED by "Pauline Lies" some time AFTER the Fall of the Temple.

In effect, God Incarnate died for our sins and was RAISED from the dead on the THIRD day and "I "PAUL" SAW him" is what the Pauline writings are about.

1Corinthians 15:15 -

Quote:

Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

GakuseiDon · 10-03-2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

There are texts in the Pauline corpus that can be interpreted as a heavenly origin for Jesus.

Phillipians Chapter 2:5 ... Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jake

Yes, and again, it's pretty obvious when you read it without the prior associations we all have:

Quote:

"The Messiah "God Saves", who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of "God Saves" EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that the Messiah "God Saves" is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The notion that this is talking about a bloke people knew personally called Joshua is toshua. It's a myth about the descent of a divine avatar into human form, and his being granted his name as a token of his task.

Same question I gave jake: where is the heavenly origin in Phil 2?

Strangely enough, you are both accepting a Christian apologetics reading for those passages. But if you read it as it is, there is no heavenly origin in Phil 2, whatever else is going on.

archibald · 10-03-2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Though, as I said, such an understanding makes other areas incoherent, whereas the understanding I have suggested does not.

On the contrary, I don't think your interpretation clears anything up. How could Paul, if he does as you suggest, not see any man as 'in the flesh' say:

.... my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites...

It makes no sense. To get your interpretation to work you have to contort the Romans verses to say something else entirely.

And 2 Cor 5

' 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.'

could still be read to imply that Paul thinks things have now 'changed' (maybe the kingdom is upon us).

archibald · 10-03-2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Could someone fill me in on which Jews at the time were not descended from the patriarchs (Romans 9:5)? Which were not born of a woman (Gal 4:4)? And couldn't a claim be manufuactured for almost any Jew to be descended from David, as the contradictory and spurious geneologies of Matthew and Luke demonstrate?

Why belabor the obvious? The answer is quite simple. Someone was teaching
just the opposite, that Jesus was not born, that Jesus was not a Jew, and that Jesus had only illusory flesh.

Jake

Sorry, where does it say anything remotely like he was, opposite to the Jews, in this sense?

archibald · 10-03-2011, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

The problem is you're still prejudging that the referent of "Christ" is a normal human being. I've altered the passages above, substituting "The Messiah" for "Christ".

See if it reads any differently if you don't prejudge it's referring to someone personally known by anybody at the time. Try reading the referent "The Messiah" as being the same referent anyone else would have used at the time - of the mythical being that they expect to come - except "Paul" is saying that that mythical being (contrary to everyone else's expectations) has already been and gone and done his work, in a way nobody was expecting, and in a far grander manner than they had supposed

The force of "no longer according to the flesh" then precisely that he was not just some military bozo, but destroyer of death and saviour, cleanser of our sins, a fully divine being. i.e. everyone had misunderstood the character and nature of the Messiah that they were awaiting (he was a divine spiritual being, not just a fleshly king), and the time and manner of his advent.

i.e. "Paul" has had a revelation that the truth about The Messiah is different from what most people think it is.

I've said it before George, your scenario is better than Doherty's and it's a possibility, it's just not the one I prefer (mainly to do with the overall evidence and Occam's Razor rather than any one specific thing*). Changing 'Christ to 'Messiah' doesn't add or take away anything, the terms are interchangeable in that sense. It's not a prejudgement at all. I've tried before to see it your way, and in a way I can, I think I can see what you mean when you describe the way you see it. :]

*'Man' in Romans 5:15 comes to mind:

'14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.'
(KJV)

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