Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EPresence · 05-07-2005, 09:18 AM

Two questions:

1) I was wondering if anyone has heard a better analogy for the Big Bang. Here's what Lederman described in, "The God Particle":

Quote:

Like a giant boulder perched at the edge of a towering cliff, the void's balance was so exquisite that only whim was needed to produce a change, a change that created the universe. And it happened. The nothingness exploded. In this initial incandescence, space and time were created.

2) Could the "whim" he's talking about be the quantum vacuum energy? But I thought the "space" Lederman is talking about possessed the vacuum energy. So is there also some form of vacuum energy in the "nothing" that space bubbled into? Considering there was never a time that space did not exist, I guess there was always some vacuum energy. I just wonder what it was doing at alpha.

Hopefully this is not baby talk to real physicists out there.

Thanks.

Schneibster · 05-07-2005, 11:33 AM

I'm not a real physicist, but yeah, it's baby talk. I object to the use of "whim" in this context; there is no evidence to support the idea that any intelligence was needed in any phase of the creation of the universe.

Jesse · 05-07-2005, 06:07 PM

Could you give us the context of the Lederman quote? He could be talking about something like spontaneous symmetry-breaking, where you have a ground state that's symmetrical but which has high potential energy, and numerous other states the system can jump into that are less symmetrical but that have lower potential, like putting a ball on the top of a mexican hat and waiting for it to spontaneously roll down onto one side of the brim or another. I've seen physicists talk about spontaneous symmetry-breaking shortly after the big bang which is supposed to explain things like the asymmetries between different forces and particle masses, but that's different from actually being the cause of the big bang. Maybe he's talking about chaotic inflation, which involves the idea that the big bang spontaneously inflated from a small patch of space in some preexisting universe? I'm not sure if spontaneous symmetry-breaking is involved in causing the inflation in that theory...

By the way, I don't think Lederman was using "whim" to actually suggest the whim of an intelligent being--he titled the book "The God Particle" facetiously, he wasn't trying to make any case for God in that book.

EPresence · 05-07-2005, 08:59 PM

First off, who said ANYTHING about intelligence? It's an analogy for Christ's sake. Anyway, I proceeded to ask about vacuum energy as being the cause of symetry breakage (nothing regarding intelligence). Thanks Jesse for trying to understand my "baby talk" question.

I'm glad you didn't assume I was trying to ascribe a God-like intelligence to the "whim." Which I was not.

The context for the quote was the beginning of the book. It's late and I can't get more specific than that. However, I will say that you (Jesse) seem nearly on target as far as what Lederman was talking about.

perfessor · 05-07-2005, 11:06 PM

This is not really a response to the OP, but - I've heard Lederman speak, and I read the book (BTW, the title was picked by an editor, not by Lederman). He's a very engaging man, a dynamic speaker - but he's all over the map as far as a "target audience" is concerned. I found it a little annoying to always have to sift the technicals out from the analogies. Still, I enjoyed the book.

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05-07-2005, 11:33 AM	#2
Schneibster Banned Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Monterey Posts: 7,099	I'm not a real physicist, but yeah, it's baby talk. I object to the use of "whim" in this context; there is no evidence to support the idea that any intelligence was needed in any phase of the creation of the universe.

05-07-2005, 06:07 PM	#3
Jesse Moderator - Science Discussions Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Providence, RI, USA Posts: 9,908	Could you give us the context of the Lederman quote? He could be talking about something like spontaneous symmetry-breaking, where you have a ground state that's symmetrical but which has high potential energy, and numerous other states the system can jump into that are less symmetrical but that have lower potential, like putting a ball on the top of a mexican hat and waiting for it to spontaneously roll down onto one side of the brim or another. I've seen physicists talk about spontaneous symmetry-breaking shortly after the big bang which is supposed to explain things like the asymmetries between different forces and particle masses, but that's different from actually being the cause of the big bang. Maybe he's talking about chaotic inflation, which involves the idea that the big bang spontaneously inflated from a small patch of space in some preexisting universe? I'm not sure if spontaneous symmetry-breaking is involved in causing the inflation in that theory... By the way, I don't think Lederman was using "whim" to actually suggest the whim of an intelligent being--he titled the book "The God Particle" facetiously, he wasn't trying to make any case for God in that book.

05-07-2005, 08:59 PM	#4
EPresence Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North Carolina (SOBX) Posts: 868	First off, who said ANYTHING about intelligence? It's an analogy for Christ's sake. Anyway, I proceeded to ask about vacuum energy as being the cause of symetry breakage (nothing regarding intelligence). Thanks Jesse for trying to understand my "baby talk" question. I'm glad you didn't assume I was trying to ascribe a God-like intelligence to the "whim." Which I was not. The context for the quote was the beginning of the book. It's late and I can't get more specific than that. However, I will say that you (Jesse) seem nearly on target as far as what Lederman was talking about.

05-07-2005, 11:06 PM	#5
perfessor Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,637	This is not really a response to the OP, but - I've heard Lederman speak, and I read the book (BTW, the title was picked by an editor, not by Lederman). He's a very engaging man, a dynamic speaker - but he's all over the map as far as a "target audience" is concerned. I found it a little annoying to always have to sift the technicals out from the analogies. Still, I enjoyed the book.

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