Wiploc

Is it that you think the set of all possible and impossible Easter bunnies is smaller than the set of all possible and impossible gods? It seems to me that the sets are the same size, and almost entirely overlap.

crc

Steven Mading

You're ignoring the presence of the speaker and listener and I don't think that's valid given what I said. You're talking about all the things that someone might in theory classify under a term, whether there exists anyone in the world that actually does so or not, and that is an infinite set. I'm talking about what, *in practice* people actually classify under the term, which is guaranteed to be a finite set given a finite population of thinkers to do the classification. Even if everyone in the world disagreed about what the word means, that would still only be about 6 billion definitions, not the infinite number you get when you talk about what someone in theory might classify under the term.

Given how people actually use the terms, "God" is, in practice, a very fuzzy term, much more so than "Easter Bunny". If I say "I believe all gods don't exist" then I'm leaving open a linguistic landmine for anyone to come by and blow a hole in my statement by mentioning their concept of god that I haven't been exposed to before. One doesn't have beliefs about things one has never heard of. Now, it's entirely possible that AFTER I hear about the new version of god that this person describes, that I *ADD* that god to the list of gods I believe doesn't exist, but until I did that, it wasn't on the list yet, and wasn't part of what I was believing doesn't exist. Not yet anyway. That's why "I believe all the god claims I've been exposed to so far describe gods that don't exist" would be a much tighter definition that doesn't leave open a linguistic landmine fill-in-the-blank like just saying "all gods" does.

fast

You're welcome, and thank you.

Yes.

I think most of them would be quick to say in the affirmative, "there are no Gods".

Incidentally, people will ultimately believe what they will, but believe that the Earth is flat as they wish, the truth of the matter is that it's not--regardless of what they believe. And, so too I say, a strong atheist who self identifies as a weak atheist is still a strong atheist (and not a weak atheist, as might be believed to be the case).

Wiploc

You never tire of telling me that I don't believe what tell you I do in fact believe. That's interesting.

I never thought of a green unicorn before. But I have long believed that no unicorns exist. That means I have long believed that no green unicorns exist---even though I hadn't thought of a green unicorn.



Does not. The points on a half inch line are infinite, as are the gods between Woden and Jehovah.



Would it be pedantic for me to point out that a person's conception of god fluctuates moment by moment?



So, when you say that you don't believe in the Easter bunny, you only mean that you don't believe in the versions of it that you've heard about?



My choices are:
1. I can classify the new god-candidate as not-really-god, as I did with hydrogen and the Pharoahs.
2. I can classify it as not really existent, as I do with Woden and Jehovah.
3. I can change my mind; I can realize that somebody has come up with something that plausibly exists even though it is godlike enough to be rightly called a god.

None of those are troubling. When I say I believe that no gods exist, I'm not saying I can't be wrong; I'm just confessing what I actually believe.

It doesn't seem to me the least strange that I believe that. It does seem to me strange that you don't believe I believe it.



I believe there are no integers between two and three. And I don't care what new candidate you are going to introduce tomorrow.



There's nothing wrong with that, for people who believe that way. My own belief in the non-existence of gods is far more inclusive.

crc

Steven Mading

That's because what you are claiming is literally impossible by the very definition of the terms. Belief is a type of deliberate, conscious thought. How do you have a deliberate conscious thought without being aware of the idea you are thinking about?

And every time you think you've come up with a counterexample you haven't because the moment you type it out, that is proof that it IS something you've contemplated. The fact that you type the words proves to me that it does not qualify as a concept you haven't heard of.

Green unicorn is a subset of unicorn that doesn't change any of the definitional properties of unicorn. You have heard of unicorns. That same thing doesn't work for gods. Even if I try to make a large superset definition that covers many gods, someone will come along and bring up a new kind that doesn't fit that definition. For example, I am certain that the omnimax god cannot exist (One that has the properties Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omnibenevolent) - because of the inherent contradictions in those properties - and while that certainly convers a lot of popular definitions of god - including the one from the three huge Ambrahamic religions, it doesn't cover everything.

And the only way for there to be conscious thought about all of them is for an infinite population to exist to think those infinite number of conscious thoughts.

Yes. And irrelevant.

Yes, obviously. To say otherwise is to not be speaking actual English because to say otherwise I'd have to have my own private definition of "believe" that allows for non-conscious belief.

And all I'm saying is that you're phrasing it very poorly by calling it belief. I'd classify the situation you describe above as "So far all the gods I've heard of are ones I believe don't exist, and furthermore I think it likely that if I was introduced to yet another alleged god that the same pattern would continue and I'd believe it doesn't exist too, after I've been introduced to the idea."

The definition of integer makes the set of all integers between two and three be null. The same kind of thing doesn't work for gods.

I just think you're operating under an entirely different definition of belief that allows for beliefs that are not conscious.

3DJay

Beliefs aren't based on absolutes, though. They're based on personal knowledge. Nobody knows the absolutes of reality, yet. Science continues to create as many questions as it answers. Presently, there's the possibility of infinite identical universes, infinite differing universes, block universe time, making past, present, and future, relative. What's the definition of reality, in all that? Who could ever form a belief, about anything, if relying on absolutes?

Take even something seemingly obvious. I believe I'm holding an apple. But if looked at, from the big picture, there could be infinite numbers of me both holding an apple, and not holding an apple. So, what's the truth? If time is relative, then I'm both having this conversation and pooping in my diaper. Do I need to contemplate the infinite possibilities of reality, and even consider the possibility that I'm hallucinating, before stating my belief? My belief, about my apple, is from the perspective of my reality. I believe I'm holding an apple.

I agree, that beliefs rely on knowledge, but personal knowledge, which includes perception. And, by extrapolating, from that personal knowledge, one can project their beliefs to cover a broader concept. Belief is relative to the believer. If the individual can't imagine any kind of God truly existing, it's perfectly valid for them to state they believe no Gods exist.


Peace

Steven Mading

You should be aware that the following two statements are very different:
(A) There are no gods that I believe exist.
(B) I believe no gods exist.
You seem to be using the two concepts interchangably in your post, but the important difference between these two statements is at the core of the argument in this thread.

Wiploc

That's me.

crc

3DJay

They move from A to B, by extrapolating (extrapolate: draw from specific cases for more general cases; gain knowledge of (an area not known or experienced) by extrapolating). From what they know about every individual God they've heard of, or thought of.....From what they know about nature and science.....Then projected at the very concept of Deity, and even all things supernatural.


Peace