Lamp Of Light

May Peace and Truth be with us always !!

Logic and reasoning , we should all agree, are important tools for knowledge and understanding, and so we should apply them in our quest for knowledge and understanding. Lets start with modus tollens. Modus Tollens is logic regarding a rule of inference of the form:

p -> q
~ q
_____
~ p

Example: "If it had rained this morning, then the grass would still be wet. But the grass is not wet. Therefore, it did not rain this morning." A simple truth-table shows that any argument of this form must be valid. In regards to truth we could say: "If truth does not exist, nothing is true."

Modus ponens is logic regarding the rule of inference of the form:

p -> q
p
_______
q

Example: "If Tuesday is the 14th, then Friday must be the 17th. Tuesday is the 14th. Therefore, Friday is the 17th". A simple truth-table shows the validity of this pattern of reasoning. In regards to truth we could say : "Somthing is true, therefore truth exists"


We see revealed by logic and reason , that whether or not somthing or nothing exists, truth still remains. Which pretty much means that your entire reality either depends upon or requires truth to exist or not exist. Which pretty much makes truth the monistic principle of all reality to every human being, and subsequently makes it the greatest conception a man could ever possibly achieve, since everything else you can conceive to exist or not exist either requires, or depends upon truth to become conformed to reality. Which by definition according to most religions, therefore indicates truth must be God(aka: the greatest thing a man can conceive to exist), which by the way, is scripturally supported entirely. So logically, one should realize that absolute truth, or the ultimate reality, is actually God, and God therefore must exist as an abstract entity, just as we know absolute truth exists as an abstract entity. Likewise I can provide you plenty of scriptural support to reveal that this understanding is indeed a correct understanding. Here is a sampling for your perusal:

Psalm 31:5
Into Your hand I commit my spirit;You have ransomed me, O LORD, God of truth.

Jesus said:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, nobody comes to the Father except through me".

John 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 15:26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

John 16:13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

1 John 5:6
This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

May the Glory of the Lord fill your heart forever !!

Tubby Lardmore

It is not true that nothing exists, and thus it follows that the Universe was created by, and is controlled by a Palestinian carpenter's son.

Hedshaker

Great!

All all you need to do now is supply a smigin of solid evidence that you invisible sky ghost actually exists and we're done :angel:

Tap tap...... when your ready.....

Orbit

JaredM

Um, isn't this just the ontological argument expressed in different language?

Just because some abstract "absolute truth" may or may not exist, that "truth" is not necessarily the Christian god. Or Allah. Or Zeus. Or Ahura Mazda. Or any of the other deities or god-concepts or supernatural entities which mankind has created for itself over the past 8,000 years.

The idea that the absolute truth or ultimate reality is God seems more like a pantheist concept than anything else. As such, I view it with an attitude of benign indifference (not that there is necessarily anything wrong with pantheism). The possible existence of absolute truth does not support any religion on earth, and any speculation about it has no probative value whatsoever.

--Jared

Lamp Of Light

May Peace and Truth be with us always !!

Tubby said:
I got to hand it to you tubby, you have proven my point quite well. The very fact that it is a logical impossibility that my God doesn't exist. Whether or not you believe it is Jesus is another matter entirely. I was merely pointing out the simple fact that my God, Truth, exists. I can subsequently then supply you large amounts of scriptural evidence that it is exactly the God of the bible, and subsequently Jesus (at least that this is what scripture idnicates)assuming that you value scripture at all as a means to coming to know God. Yet the point still remains, either way, my God exists, the debate is really only whether or not it is the God of the bible, and I suggest scriptural evidence says that it is.



As tubby so gracefully demonstrated to us, it is a logical impossibility my God, Truth, doesn't exist. Do you think it would be so easy to deny God ? The point of note here, is that you surely do revere Him, your very sanity demands it, so even in your ignorance to acknowledge Him, you remain subject to HIm, and serve Him. Even if you are sayng you are not someone who holds honesty as a value worthy of emulating, it will still be so. I mean one would think science is my enemy, but in fact, science is my friend. After all it seeks to establish truth, which I happen to revere and know as the one true living God.

Hedshaker

I think you'll find that Tubby was being facetious, but never mind...

What God? What are you talking about?

I haven't a clue as to who or what you are talking about. Care to elaborate?

Honesty is all I'm asking for, plain and simple.

Then provide some solid evidence that your "one true living God" actually exists. That's all you have to do and we're done.

Tap, tap tap tap tap...... still waiting

Lamp Of Light

May Peace and Truth be with us always !!

Thank you for your reply JaredM !

you said:
That is true, I am merely telling you that my God, Truth, exists. One might consider HIm an alien life form, somthign that we are unable to yet perceive (I suggest because He prevents it). Consider we know for a fact that germs have existed for a long time, but it was only until recently that we were able to perceive them, and a point of note is made that when they laughed at the discovery(er) of germs, we later found the justice was had for the revealer when what was claimed as reality was subsequently proven to be true.

I can of course, if anyone is interested, subsequently explain to you why I believe it is the God of the bible being revealed to us in Jesus Christ.

I couldn't say what parts of my belief conform wiht other religions much. I have failed to presonally find any other religion (thus far) that fills the bill of understanding I have in regards to my God, although judaism, islam, and some forms of other religions do come close in the aspect of revering truth as a spiritual essence of God.

Lamp Of Light

Thanks for your reply OrbitV2 !

Then I would think we shoudl get along quite handily After all, I revere the Truth as being God. More specifically, I suggest by its very immaterial nature that makes truth a Spiritual entity. Better said "Spirit of Truth", or as the Bible often calls, "The Holy Spirit".. the fire which proceeds from God.

I already demonstrated to you that it is a logical impossibility that my God, Truth, doesn't exist. Tubby even affirmed it for everyone. I will even go one step farther and claim that my God, Truth, is an absolute Truth. For anyone to even argue that absolute truth didn't exist, would require (were it actually realized and true/fact) that an absolute truth be established by default. Thereby nullifying the statemnt as true. So it is a logical impossibility it is ever realized fact for truth not to exist. In other words to deny the existance of absolute truth is to deny reality itself. I mean people can do it, but they are obviously not in their right state of mind when they are doing. I would suggest they are not well, or "whole".

Hedshaker

Sure, go ahead. We've pretty much heard em all but you might just have an entertaining slant, so go for it :huh:

David B

Got it! I'm converted! Germs exist, but we never knew they existed until a couple of hundred years ago.

And it is true that germs exist, so we have the god of truth.

The understanding I have of god as truth fits the FSM.

Therefore the flying spaghetti monster exists.

David B (is happy to find that he is justified in his faith)