Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ceres · 09-09-2006, 07:45 AM

Well the discussion between whether its a cult or not just ends up being a matter of perspective..... what exactly do you want to know about the early church? There were struggles between factions after the "birth" of the movement and ultimately the gnostics lost and other similar movements... etc.

aperfectstranger · 09-09-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carin Nel

Hi Sven
I have music and songwriting and a little bit of health interest that keeps me busy and I am married to a very important man

Then I've got 2 boys that really keeps me on the go, eventhough they are already 24 and 21 years old and one of them stays at residence at rhe university of Stellenbosch, close by. Then I've got the most adorable Bull-terrier who needs my attention and loving care AND as you know, we are building a beautiful mansion on a gholf estate. (I'm exagerating!)
I've got a 83 year old mom who lives close by, I don't know for how long, and I really want to spend the last couple of years with her as much as possible.
My dmarried daughter does not need my attention that much, as she lives in Houston, TX.
My eldest son (30) is still unmarried, but lives in his own flat in Cape Town, so he does not need me that much either (except when he has girlfriend problems or when he is ill!)
I'm a worship leader at a large ladies group once a week and a councellor during the week.
I'm trying to do my own private Scripture study as well.
Tell me, do you think my life is boring?
Why do you think I lack the time to properly do homework on the subjects that I'm not familiar with?
Thanks, but no thaks.
Getting to know God intimately is the most exciting thing one can ever do and it takes a lifetime of bliss.
Do you want a copy of my CD?
I don't think you will appreciate the lyrics, or the music style, but it took two years for me to write, compose and release it. It was released last December and its doing quite well here in South Africa.
If you know of a lady in need, let me know and I'll send her a copy. I can't tell you how it blesses them when they hear the words of the songs. Its prophetic, because the Lord wakes me up early in the morning and then I hear the song - words and melody- complete in my head. I just have to write it down or sing it on my digital recorder before I forget it! But I don't forget it, its as if its impressed permanently in my memory. Its awesome!
One song came to me one afternoon at the Victoria Falls in Zambia at 2 noon. My husband and I were sitting on the deck, next to the river having drinks. (I had water!

) The river was full and very noisy and 2 miles away I could see the "smoke that thunders" mist of the falls. Suddenly I saw God's throne in the blue skye just above me with His heart on the throne and the river flowing from His heart into the Zambesi River in front of me. At the same time I hear the song - words and melody with backing vocals and instrument, the whole arrangement!
I was speechless for a while, but then realised I had to write down what I hear. I did not have a pen in my bag, so I wrote the whole song with my lipliner at the back of my diary! Its still there - It was March 7, 2005.

Oh, I can tell you things that you will not believe, Sven, but I don't blame you.

You did not think I will give such an honest, serious answer, hey, because you were sarcastic!!!!:wave:

So Sven, I'll stick to my field of knowledge, thanks.
Regards
Carin Nel

Carin, I can't believe how little humility you display for someone professing to be a believer. You are living in a part of the world where there are masses of poor people and you are trying to impress us with your mansion and your important husband. Since you are such an expert on scriptures you must familiar with these:

Quote:

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
-Matthew 6:24

"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered."
-Proverbs 21:13

"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"
-Matthew 19:21

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'"
-Matthew 19:23-24

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'"
-Matthew 25:41-45

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."
-Ezekiel 16:49

The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern."
-Proverbs 29:7

Of course if you are making money out of your faith with your music, that would be a strong incentive to remain believing in the delusions (at least publicly).

A deity supposedly inspires you? You have had visions of it? I'm 100% sure you wouldn't take someone of another faith's claims regarding similar experiences seriously at all. Regarding inspiration: It comes from everywhere, it comes from nowhere. You have inspired me. Does that make you a goddess? I hope your husband thinks so

Here goes:

I AM A LIVER OF LIFE (Inspired by Carin Nel)

I was a woman of faith
But my prayers never heard
My tears wept in vain
To a god so absurd

Seeking never finding
Questions needed answering
Begging for truth, down on my knees
Finding my way, slowly being freed

CHORUS
Now the veil’s no longer there
So-called loved ones ceased to care
Tossed the cross too heavy to bear
I AM was a lie
Not a giver of life

I am a force of reason
The truth has set me free
No more foolish superstitions
Will ever again enslave me

My life is multi-faceted
I explore them fearlessly
What a feeling to be free!
Was blind but now I see!

CHORUS
Now I’m free to live this life
Knowledge now has cast out fear
Gone the enslavement, I once held dear
I am a child of nature
A Liver of life

I put my trust in sunshine
I have no fear of rain
No wrathful beings wishing us away
All the gods have feet of clay

Living life so fully
Leaves no fear of death
For when I die I’ll be no more
Just rest in peace for ever more

CHORUS

Living truth no more lies
Only Lucy in the sky
I am a liver
I am a liver of life

Sven · 09-13-2006, 06:19 AM

It's also been strangely silent here for a while...

Carin Nel · 09-15-2006, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OliviaOh

Carin, I can't believe how little humility you display for someone professing to be a believer. You are living in a part of the world where there are masses of poor people and you are trying to impress us with your mansion and your important husband.

If you look at the post again, you will see that it was a specific answer to SVEN. If you will notice further, you will see that the important husband had a

which meant it was a joke! Where's your humor? If you look closer to the post, you will see that I said I was exaggerating when I said we are building a mansion. And by the way, the Word of God has no problem with wealth, but with the LOVE for money.

When I started writing these songs, I did not have the money to make the CD. I still don't have it. I just waited and prepared the songs, performing them where I ministered. I never asked anybody to help me, because I knew it was not my project, but the Lord's . (Of course you will not understand this )
About 4 years ago, I sang a secular song at a big event as a favour for the MD of the company, and one of the guests, a record producer came to me, offering to help me if ever I wanted to make a CD. I then said I was not interested, because I had no idea that I would write songs then.
Well, the same producer ran int my husban 2 years ago and repeated the offer without knowing about my songs. My husband mentioned the songs and the producer immediately organised the whole recording session. It did not cost us a anything, apart from three aeroplane tickets to Johannesburg.
Don't anyone ever tell me that God did not provide. He uses people, situations, and circumstances to accomplish His plans. He is in control.

I don't sell the CD's, I give it away. Because you know, Olivia, the Word of God says: Freely you've received, so freely give.

For those who did not go to the "link" for the real words of the song that Olivia violated, here it is (She obviously did not want you to read why I wrote it either, because she conveniently left that part out):

I wrote this song to remind myself and other women that we were made by God for a purpose and that we should live on purpose. Because I am not the breadwinner, I felt inferior to my husband and to other women who earned an income. The Lord took me on a journey through my life and showed me my worth as a woman, a wife and a mother.
WE ARE WORTH FAR MORE THAN WHAT MONEY CAN BUY. (Prov. 31)
The Lord showed me that a tear shared with a friend, a word of encouragement to a husband or a child, and prayers prayed in the secret of the night are priceless acts of giving life.

I AM A GIVER OF LIFE
I am a woman of faith
I intercede when there’s strife
I sow in tears, reap with joy
I am a mother and wife

I am a servant and friend
I’ll give myself to the end
So that the whole world can see
The life of God that’s in me

CHORUS:
I have the love when they cry
Living streams when they’re dry
A love they cannot deny
I am a giver
I am a giver of Life

I am the Bride of Christ
I have His seed of Life
The living Word that’s in me
I sow abundantly

I have one purpose in life:
To live the life of Christ
To set the captives free
And make the blind to see

CHORUS:
I have the love when they cry
Living streams when they’re dry
A love they cannot deny
I am a giver
I am a giver of Life

I put my trust in Christ
He is my guiding light
And when I carry a friend
I know I’ll make it till the end

I give my life away
Only to find life again
For when I die I will live
And when I live I can give

CHORUS:
I have the love when they cry
Living streams when they’re dry
A love they cannot deny
I am a giver
I am a giver of Life

I have the love when they cry
Living streams when they’re dry
A love they cannot deny
I am a giver
I am a giver
I am a giver of Life

I am a giver of Life

Carin Nel
2003

Regards
Carin Nel

Steven Avery · 09-15-2006, 04:52 AM

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carin Nel

the Holy Spirit is declaring the entire New Testament to be divinely inspired

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Back in those days the scriptures were limited to the Old Testament. .... Why is that not special pleading? :huh: You have merely made a faith based statement, and as such, it is devoid of historically verifiable meaning.

Jake, as you should know the internal definition of "scripture" (graphe) used by the NT includes writings that we accept as the NT today. This is seen clearly in Peter's reference to the epistles of Paul and also by Paul quoting Luke as scripture in his earlier letter to Timothy.

So there is no 'special pleading' in the interpretation given by Carin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darstec

To be technical it actually says all writing (pasa graphe) not all scripture.

Nope, the NT usage of graphe (used 51 times) is in reference to scripture.

The NT word for writings, gramma, is used 14 times, and biblion is used for book or scroll. eg. letters here is gramma.

Acts 28:21
And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.

Here, because it has the adjective 'holy', we have gramma referred to as scripture.

2Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Luci · 09-15-2006, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carin Nel

If you look at the post again, you will see that it was a specific answer to SVEN. If you will notice further, you will see that the important husband had a

which meant it was a joke! Where's your humor? If you look closer to the post, you will see that I said I was exaggerating when I said we are building a mansion. And by the way, the Word of God has no problem with wealth, but with the LOVE for money.When I started writing these songs, I did not have the money to make the CD. I still don't have it. I just waited and prepared the songs, performing them where I ministered. I never asked anybody to help me, because I knew it was not my project, but the Lord's . (Of course you will not understand this )
About 4 years ago, I sang a secular song at a big event as a favour for the MD of the company, and one of the guests, a record producer came to me, offering to help me if ever I wanted to make a CD. I then said I was not interested, because I had no idea that I would write songs then.
Well, the same producer ran int my husban 2 years ago and repeated the offer without knowing about my songs. My husband mentioned the songs and the producer immediately organised the whole recording session. It did not cost us a anything, apart from three aeroplane tickets to Johannesburg.
Don't anyone ever tell me that God did not provide. He uses people, situations, and circumstances to accomplish His plans. He is in control.

I don't sell the CD's, I give it away. Because you know, Olivia, the Word of God says: Freely you've received, so freely give.

For those who did not go to the "link" for the real words of the song that Olivia violated, here it is (She obviously did not want you to read why I wrote it either, because she conveniently left that part out):

I wrote this song to remind myself and other women that we were made by God for a purpose and that we should live on purpose. Because I am not the breadwinner, I felt inferior to my husband and to other women who earned an income. The Lord took me on a journey through my life and showed me my worth as a woman, a wife and a mother.
WE ARE WORTH FAR MORE THAN WHAT MONEY CAN BUY. (Prov. 31)
The Lord showed me that a tear shared with a friend, a word of encouragement to a husband or a child, and prayers prayed in the secret of the night are priceless acts of giving life.

Regards
Carin Nel

(my emphasis)

Hi Carin

I can agree with you that your God has no problem with wealth at all, if I compare multimillionaire evangelists with the millions of people dying of hunger every day. He sure has his favourites.

Please enlighten me here; if your God provides for you, who provides for the musicians who don't even believe in him, but become extremely successful and popular?

I find it ridiculous that you believe your God has the time to help you make a cd, while there are millions and millions of people in need of water, basic food, healthcare, sanitation, peace.

Millions of prayers unanswered, but God has the time for Carin Nel's cd.

So by the way, I thought you were inspired by God to write the lyrics of your song? Now you say: I wrote this song to remind myself and other women that we were made by God for a purpose and that we should live on purpose. So you did it for your own selfish purposes?

How many of the multimillionaire evangelists give their riches away to the poor, the hungry, the sick? They live in their mansions (and may I remind you, if you sit on a garbage dump trying to find scraps to eat, any home is a mansion), fly in their own private jets, have numerous bank accounts all for the glory of God.

Carin Nel · 09-15-2006, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luci

(my emphasis)

Hi Carin

I can agree with you that your God has no problem with wealth at all, if I compare multimillionaire evangelists with the millions of people dying of hunger every day. He sure has his favourites.

I said God has no problem with wealth, but He has a big problem with the LOVE for money. He blessed Job, Abraham, Solomon, David, Daniel, Joseph....but He looks at the sincerity of the heart. As for the millionare evangelists you are talking about, I can't speak for them. They have to account for themselves. I'm not anybody's judge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luci

Please enlighten me here; if your God provides for you, who provides for the musicians who don't even believe in him, but become extremely successful and popular?

You won't believe this, but God does! He does not differentiate between people! The Bible says He sends His rain on the just and the unjust. The unjust just do not give Him the glory for their blessings, whereas the believers know where their blessings and providence come from. God loves the world and want the world to acknowledge His goodness and providence. Some people do, and some are just too blind or stubborn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luci

I find it ridiculous that you believe your God has the time to help you make a cd, while there are millions and millions of people in need of water, basic food, healthcare, sanitation, peace.

Millions of prayers unanswered, but God has the time for Carin Nel's cd.

I'm not surprised that you find it ridiculous, because if you knew God, you would have known that He is omnipresent and that He is not bound by time. He is in the futute, the presence as well as the past, and that is how He can handle even a stupid CD like Carin Nel's. It is important for Him to help someone like me n the first place, because He inisiated the CD in the first place and saw it through, and secondly, because anything that is important to me is important to God, because I'm His child and He loves me. Like an earthly father should attend to the needs of his child, so the Heavenly Father does too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luci

So by the way, I thought you were inspired by God to write the lyrics of your song? Now you say: I wrote this song to remind myself and other women that we were made by God for a purpose and that we should live on purpose. So you did it for your own selfish purposes?

This song was inspired by God as He took me through the Scriptures and showed me the verses that would lift me up, and then He reminded me of situations where I give life in other person's lives. The song was definitely inspired by God. If you want to call me selfish for recording a CD to remind myself and others of our self-worth, then yes, I'm selfish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luci

How many of the multimillionaire evangelists give their riches away to the poor, the hungry, the sick? They live in their mansions (and may I remind you, if you sit on a garbage dump trying to find scraps to eat, any home is a mansion), fly in their own private jets, have numerous bank accounts all for the glory of God.

I have no idea, and neither do you. See, because you don't know what they give, or what they are doing while you are watching the pictures of paparazzi in the papers and on scandal TV. How much do you give? What do you do to help those millions of poor, hungry people? That is what everyone should ask. Not, what is he or she doing? Maybe the multimillionaire evangelists do give their riches away to the poor and get blessed again. Maybe some of them are dishonest. Then they'll have to give account to God. I am not their judge, and neither are you.

Regards,
Carin Nel

Sven · 09-16-2006, 07:39 AM

I see that Carin is back but has not addressed anything about her claims about the history of the bible.

Carin Nel · 09-16-2006, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

I see that Carin is back but has not addressed anything about her claims about the history of the bible.

I'm not going to either.

Carin

Carin Nel · 09-16-2006, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

I am generally very wary of people who use the word 'truth,' especially when they capitalize it (more so when they capitalize all of it). Truth is a philosophical concept which has no real meaning since it near impossible to define it in a manner acceptable to all, or even most. It is facts that we are interested in, whereas people who peddle the truth are generally pushing their own ideology around. It can be easily shown that people who claim to have the truth usually disagree with everybody else who also deal in truth. I suggest they go and slug it out between themselves and leave us alone.

Also, why should it be necessary to search the scriptures for truth? Shouldn't divine truth from the pen of god be fairly obvious? It would seem to me that subjective truth could hardly come from god unless one is a buddhist, of course.

Likewise, 'Christian Life' must also be a fantasy since every christian has a different life and a different understanding of such a life, again relegating it to the realm of subjectivity.

All such concepts are pointless and it seems remarkable that many christians are unable to understand such basic reasoning and instead fall back on the old No True Scotsman fallacy. All we can reasonably discuss here are the facts, something which precious few christians know much about. Luckily, some do and we have a few here, you know who you are.

Julian

Thanks, Julian, as a Moderator you make us feel most welcome, at least the "precious few who know who they are"!
The truth is everywhere. Whether a Buddhist, an atheist, a Hindu, a Theist, an agnostic speaks it, if its truth, I will claim it.Therefore I don't feel thratened in these discussions, because I can distinguish between the lie and the truth.
I wonder if you don't perhaps feel threatened by others who disagree with you, seeing that you want them to "leave you alone"?

Regards
Carin Nel

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09-09-2006, 07:45 AM	#91
ceres Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 330	Well the discussion between whether its a cult or not just ends up being a matter of perspective..... what exactly do you want to know about the early church? There were struggles between factions after the "birth" of the movement and ultimately the gnostics lost and other similar movements... etc.

09-13-2006, 06:19 AM	#93
Sven Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: outraged about the stiffling of free speech here Posts: 10,987	It's also been strangely silent here for a while...

09-16-2006, 07:39 AM	#98
Sven Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: outraged about the stiffling of free speech here Posts: 10,987	I see that Carin is back but has not addressed anything about her claims about the history of the bible.

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