gurugeorge

As spam says, if you look at Detering you'll see a reasonably good argument that there's a Simon the Magician who fits the bill in Josephus, with (ironically) probably more secure historicity than "Jesus".

I like that theory a lot, it explains a hell of a lot really simply. As I've outlined before, it makes a smooth, pretty logical explanation.

Originally you have a sort of Samaritan proto-Gnostic Joshua cult that has an alternative version of the Messiah concept, placing him in the past, reversing the "tropes" of the Messiah idea. Simon is the guy who takes it to the Gentiles in a big burst of energy (still not a huge religion, but at least having some dedicated fans).

After the Diaspora, the true origins are lost or vague, and an alternative version of Joshua Messiah with a more specific historicity and concocted lineage back to the cult figure himself is invented by the Roman church in a (no doubt well-meaning) attempt to gather together and subordinate the various strands of the nascent religion.

As the Roman proto-orthodoxy finds its feet, "Luke" rewrites the old and probably original proto-Gnostic biography of Joshua Messiah which was also used by Marcion, and concocts a "history" (Acts) that rewrites the past to some extent, in a way that's both anti-Marcion and anti-Gnostic, with the anti-Marcion bit being the emphasis of the links betwen Judaism and Christianity (whereas the original religion was not so much Jewish as Samaritan), and the anti-Gnostic bit being the splitting of Simon into two - a "good" Paul who's made into a thoroughly Jewish ("Saul") founder of proto-orthodoxy along with "Peter" who represents the concocted lineage going back to the Joshua cult figure himself, and a "bad" Simon who represents those recalcitrant Gnostics who refuse to toe the Roman party line.

In reality, Simon was the founder of all schools of Christianity, including the church in Rome, they were originally all proto-Gnostic, and proto-orthodoxy was a schismatic movement that split off from them, leaving them to develop into Marcionism on the one hand and Gnosticism on the other, until they were successfully quashed by the at-first schismatic movement, that eventually, by means of cunning, lots of money, and eventually force, became the majority movement.

What's not to like?

(Incidentally, to link this to the other thread about Lucian, Detering or one of the other Dutch Radicals, has an interesting essay arguing that Peregrinus Proteus was actually this very same Simon - i.e. that Peregrinus Proteus is actually a biography of this very Simon/Paul! Interestingly, this picture fits nicely with the Josephus reference.)

aa5874

I am not impressed with Detering's analysis.

"Paul' is portrayed as a letter writer in the "Pauline Epistles" who persecuted followers of Jesus and and then became some kind of missionary. The "Paul" of the epistles scarcely make mention of miracles that were actually witnessed or performed and never claimed he was a God.

On ther other hand, Justin Martyr portrayed Simon as a God who was some kind of miracle worker and his multitude followers were called Christians. Some of these Christians of Simon also believed they would never die.

First Apology 26 And these are the so-called words of Jesus in John 11.26 It is more plausible to me to claim that Jesus was Simon Magus or was based on events surrounding Simon Magus.

I cannot find the name "Paul" in Justin Martyr's writings. I find Jesus, Marcion and Simon Magus but no "Paul" at all.

Until I can get additional information, I will place "Paul" no earlier than the last half of the 2nd century, or after Justin Martyr's "First Aplology".

spamandham

Did you actually read it?

aa5874

That's why I said I was not impressed with Detering's analysis. I have read Detering before you posted the link.

My position is that there is no need to try to place "Paul" in the 1st century. "Paul" was not there, based on Justin Martyr.

spamandham

Sure, but was there a Simon Magus?

aa5874

It seems so to me, but this is based, again, on Justin Martyr, early christian writers and Acts. But even if Simon Magus was not a figure of history, this finding would not be helpful to "Paul" who is not mentioned by Justin at all.

gurugeorge

Yeah but the point is there was a name-change. The nickname of the Simon who Detering identifies as Simon Magus was "Atomos", which (supposedly) meant something like "Shorty", for which the Latin equivalent is (drumroll) "Paulus". The "Saul"="Paul" thing is a proto-orthodox red herring meant to more thoroughly Judaize him.

(Don't know if it's correct that "indivisible" came to mean "tiny", presumably by association with Democritean theory, but the Atomos=Paulus is Detering's suggestion, which if it holds water, is a powerful argument.)

Whatever, there are nuggets in "Paul" that are quite profound and have passed into human consciousness (e.g. "try all things, hold fast to that which is good"), that seem to be evidence of some kind of religious genius. Somebody was responsible for establishing the very earliest spread of Christianity, meagre though it may have been in absolute terms in the earliest days; somebody with great energy and charisma.

Another way of looking at it: if Simon Magus were as "big" as Acts makes him out to be, there should have been more evidence of him. If he was actually "Paul" then there's no evidential gap (i.e. we do indeed have some - though probably not that much - genuine material of his in the letters), there was just a bit of legerdemain by the proto-orthodox that was easy to perpetrate because of the time that had elapsed, the scattered and variegated nature of early Christianity, and the growing political and financial clout of the proto-orthodoxy.

spamandham

Simon Magus was also mentioned by Josephus, and as far as I know, there is no controversy related to that mention, as there is with Jesus Christ.

andrewcriddle

Simon the Magician in Josephus Antiqiuties book 20 chapter 7 was a Jew from Cyprus. Simon Magus in Acts and other Christian sources was a Samaritan.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

IIUC the issue is that some manuscripts of Josephus Antiquities 20:7:2 have Simon some Atomos.

Interestingly some have identified Atomos with the Jewish magician in Cyprus in Acts 13 whose name in verse 8 is usually Elymas but where Codex Bezae and the Old Latin read Etoimas or slight variants thereof.
See http://n.domaindlx.com/fdier/gkcm/act/5.htm

Andrew Criddle