Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WishboneDawn · 04-19-2006, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Because of its ability to shed its skin and seemingly be "resurrected," the serpent was a frequent symbol of immortality in ancient ME mythology. It was symbolized thusly in Egyptian and Sumerian mythologies, for instance. There are at least two stories that I know of (Gilgamesh is one of them) where the means to immortality (rendered as either a plant or a drinkable potion) was stolen by a snake.

Snakes were often sometimes seen as being messengers between the earth and the underworld (because they lived in holes and cracks in the earth). I would guess that the serpent in Genesis probably has some derivation from the latter perception and is also made indirectly responsible for the loss of human immortality.

The serpent in Gilgamesh was a figure of mischeif and even guidence as well, wasn't he? I don't think it's a stretch to say that's where he may have come from. Even in Genesis I don't see the snake as evil, certainly not Satan. But I guess he makes a good scapegoat if you don't want Adam and Eve to be responsible for their own decision and being taken in by a huckster.

Magdlyn · 04-19-2006, 05:40 AM

If the serpent was a "symbol of guidance" then "he" was not a huckster, was "he"? "He" offered actual gnosis to Eve: gnosis of good and evil, thereby bringing these prototypes from naievete to adulthood.

In Crete, snake as a symbol of female power and divinity.

Joan of Bark · 04-19-2006, 06:47 AM

Didn't some gnostics believe the serpent was actually the good guy? (And God the creator was Satan?)

Magdlyn · 04-19-2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Didn't some gnostics believe the serpent was actually the good guy?

Some Gnostics turned the interpretation of the "bad guys" in Scripture around, yes.

Quote:

(And God the creator was Satan?)

They called YHWH: Ialdabaoth, (or, as in GJudas, Barbelo) the Demiurge. Not Satan. The creator god was seen as distinct from the True Ineffable God.

BTW:

Matthew (10:16) reported that Jesus once advised his apostles when sending them out to preach: "Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

WishboneDawn · 04-19-2006, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

If the serpent was a "symbol of guidance" then "he" was not a huckster, was "he"? "He" offered actual gnosis to Eve: gnosis of good and evil, thereby bringing these prototypes from naievete to adulthood

The symbol of guidence was the Gilgamesh serpent. Though the garden serpent may likely trace it's roots to that, it's not the same beast exactly.

Magdlyn · 04-19-2006, 07:47 AM

Yes, but that is not important. I believe we are talking about archetypes and syncretism, not exact copies.

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-19-2006, 07:50 AM

I agree that the serpent was not Satan. Satan as a "devil" was a concept which didn't even exist in Judaic myth. It was just a talking snake and if you really look at it, the serpent in Genesis is not even evil. It didn't say anything to Eve which wasn't true. In fact, It's God who is depicted as the liar in the story. I actually see some similarity to Prometheus in the story. The snake defies the will of God(s) to give man knowledge and ultimately pays a price for it.

Magdlyn · 04-19-2006, 07:51 AM

There is also some heavy snake mythology in the Exodus. First, Moses changes his staff to a live serpent to impress Pharoah. Later, the wanderers are plagued by dangerous snakes and Moses "saves" them by holding up a bronze serpent on his staff. Later in the NT, Jesus compares himself to this lifted up serpent.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.

So, Jesus as a snake! Kind of boggles, huh?

Chili · 04-19-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

There is also some heavy snake mythology in the Exodus. First, Moses changes his staff to a live serpent to impress Pharoah. Later, the wanderers are plagued by dangerous snakes and Moses "saves" them by holding up a bronze serpent on his staff. Later in the NT, Jesus compares himself to this lifted up serpent.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.

So, Jesus as a snake! Kind of boggles, huh?

No Jesus is not the snake but the faculty of reason is the snake that is used as a walking stick to lean on, is defeated by Michael the arch angel who shot the arrow towards enlightenment (the Annunciation), is deprived by the woman withholding her strikes at the lesser serpent Eve in the Mary and Martha parable while in Galilee, and later is raised to become the staff of the victor in the new Jerusalem.

mithy73 · 04-19-2006, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

There is also some heavy snake mythology in the Exodus. First, Moses changes his staff to a live serpent to impress Pharoah. Later, the wanderers are plagued by dangerous snakes and Moses "saves" them by holding up a bronze serpent on his staff. Later in the NT, Jesus compares himself to this lifted up serpent.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.

So, Jesus as a snake! Kind of boggles, huh?

Looks like there might be some association with the Rod of Asclepius there.

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04-19-2006, 05:40 AM	#12
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	If the serpent was a "symbol of guidance" then "he" was not a huckster, was "he"? "He" offered actual gnosis to Eve: gnosis of good and evil, thereby bringing these prototypes from naievete to adulthood. In Crete, snake as a symbol of female power and divinity.

04-19-2006, 06:47 AM	#13
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Didn't some gnostics believe the serpent was actually the good guy? (And God the creator was Satan?)

04-19-2006, 07:47 AM	#16
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Yes, but that is not important. I believe we are talking about archetypes and syncretism, not exact copies.

04-19-2006, 07:50 AM	#17
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I agree that the serpent was not Satan. Satan as a "devil" was a concept which didn't even exist in Judaic myth. It was just a talking snake and if you really look at it, the serpent in Genesis is not even evil. It didn't say anything to Eve which wasn't true. In fact, It's God who is depicted as the liar in the story. I actually see some similarity to Prometheus in the story. The snake defies the will of God(s) to give man knowledge and ultimately pays a price for it.

04-19-2006, 07:51 AM	#18
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	There is also some heavy snake mythology in the Exodus. First, Moses changes his staff to a live serpent to impress Pharoah. Later, the wanderers are plagued by dangerous snakes and Moses "saves" them by holding up a bronze serpent on his staff. Later in the NT, Jesus compares himself to this lifted up serpent. John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up. So, Jesus as a snake! Kind of boggles, huh?

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