Freethought & Rationalism Archive

inquisitive01 · 08-22-2004, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

How do you figure that? The appearance in Luke clearly takes place on Easter evening.

24:13 "Now behold, two of them [Cleopas and an unnamed person] were traveling THAT SAME DAY...(What day? The same day Jesus resurrected).

Jesus appears to them without them first realizing it's him.

They talk with Jesus awhile. Jesus opens their eyes to who he is.

33 "So they rose THAT VERY HOUR and returned to Jerusalem, and found THE ELEVEN and those who were with them gathered together..."

Then Jesus appears to them as the two people are reporting what they saw.

The apostles are initially unbelieving (36-45). Why would they be unbelieving if this was Jesus' 2nd appearance to them a week later?

I'm sorry, but Luke 24 is CLEARLY describing an event which took place on the same day Jesus rose from the dead. It is not a week later.

Perhaps Cleopas (husband to one of the Mary's) and the other person with him did not actually count the number of disciples present, but simply saw the disciples together and assumed all "eleven" were there (though Thomas may not have been there)? Certainly is possible, isn't it?
Notice also that the account by Luke does not mention Thomas, so it's certainly possible that John's account could be more accurate. Either way, it does not exactly prove anything, except that two different men (John and Luke) wrote things down somewhat differently (they were only human, after all).

Lord Emsworth · 08-22-2004, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Verses 9-12 are also talking about Satan who is portraying himself as God, but "sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." THEN, Verses 13-17 go back to talking about the actual, true God (not the one impersonating Him).

It's actually not that difficult to follow, especially when common sense should tell which one (God or Satan) would be much more likely to "send strong delusion... that they all might be damned." Verses 13-17 clearly state that the real God (not Satan pretending to be God) "hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (NOT damnation, as Satan would attempt to choose for you).

Therefore, I'm not "apologizing" for anything, as it is quite obvious to me.

In other words: 'Satan' = 'God' != 'God'

It is one of these moments that I just know that there is no God at all :huh: ... but only (the word) 'God.'

Killjoy · 08-22-2004, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

See Verses 3-4 in the same Chapter. The "son of pardition" (Satan), who would delude some to believe he is God, would send the "strong delusion." Below is Verses 3-12 of Chapter 2, which is necessary to read if one is to understand these Verses (you can't just read Verse 11 and get the whole picture, in other words, which I mistakenly did earlier... my apologies):

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God (the one they believe to be God, but is actually Satan deceiving, or deluding them) shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

All of this will make the Bible very difficult to read. If "delusion" means "frustration" and "God" means "Satan", then anything could mean anything. It will be particularly difficult if words change their meaning from one passage to the next. I agree that it is one very effective way of avoiding contradictions, but it does so at the cost of the Bible having any useful information to impart at all.

Roland · 08-22-2004, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Perhaps Cleopas (husband to one of the Mary's) and the other person with him did not actually count the number of disciples present, but simply saw the disciples together and assumed all "eleven" were there (though Thomas may not have been there)? Certainly is possible, isn't it?
Notice also that the account by Luke does not mention Thomas, so it's certainly possible that John's account could be more accurate. Either way, it does not exactly prove anything, except that two different men (John and Luke) wrote things down somewhat differently (they were only human, after all).

Ah..now we're changing the terms of the debate. I thought the purpose of the thread was to point out where the Bible contradicted itself (i.e. said two things that, if taken literally, could not both be true).

Shameless Hussy · 08-22-2004, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Verses 9-12 are also talking about Satan who is portraying himself as God, but "sends them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." THEN, Verses 13-17 go back to talking about the actual, true God (not the one impersonating Him).

This is a new one - I've never seen this reading/interpretation before. Is it your own, or was it taught this way to you? Is there some wording in the original text which supports your reading of it?

I reviewed the entire chapter, and the translation I read (NIV) certainly didn't leave any doubt that God in verse 11 was, in fact, God. Elsewhere in this chapter, the man of lawlessness is never referred to as God - in fact, the text makes very clear and careful distinctions between the two. Only God is referred to as God. The study notes state that this delusion is sent by God (NOT the lawless one or Satan) as punishment, "God uses sin to punish the sinful". They are punished because "their unbelief was willing and intentional". In this way, the ones who decide to delight in a wicked lie (when they darn well know better) will have their lie turned upon them by God, so that their damnation will be unequivocal. He has the Last Laugh.

inquisitive01 · 08-22-2004, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth

In other words: 'Satan' = 'God' != 'God'

It is one of these moments that I just know that there is no God at all :huh: ... but only (the word) 'God.'

I'm afraid that you are the one who has chosen to invent your "equation" above, not I... and it's certainly not suggested by the info in these Verses of the Bible, as pointed out earlier. In other words, it is you who seems to be suggesting that these verses are talking about each (Satan and God) as if they were one. It's not that superficial, though... and these Verses are actually quite straightforward compared to some others.

inquisitive01 · 08-22-2004, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shameless Hussy

This is a new one - I've never seen this reading/interpretation before. Is it your own, or was it taught this way to you? Is there some wording in the original text which supports your reading of it?

I reviewed the entire chapter, and the translation I read (NIV) certainly didn't leave any doubt that God in verse 11 was, in fact, God. Elsewhere in this chapter, the man of lawlessness is never referred to as God - in fact, the text makes very clear and careful distinctions between the two. Only God is referred to as God. The study notes state that this delusion is sent by God (NOT the lawless one or Satan) as punishment, "God uses sin to punish the sinful". They are punished because "their unbelief was willing and intentional". In this way, the ones who decide to delight in a wicked lie (when they darn well know better) will have their lie turned upon them by God, so that their damnation will be unequivocal. He has the Last Laugh.

The key words in Verse 11, which would support that "God" in Verse 11 is actually Satan portraying himself as God, are the words (or phrase) "for this cause." For what "cause" you might ask? Well, this is answered in the preceeding Verses... Verses 9 and 10.

inquisitive01 · 08-22-2004, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy

All of this will make the Bible very difficult to read. If "delusion" means "frustration" and "God" means "Satan", then anything could mean anything. It will be particularly difficult if words change their meaning from one passage to the next. I agree that it is one very effective way of avoiding contradictions, but it does so at the cost of the Bible having any useful information to impart at all.

When I first read Thessalonians 2:11, I unfortunately assumed, based on the original post(s) that mentioned it, that the word "God" indeed meant God. Because of only reading this one verse, and thinking that it was actually referring to God as was suggested, I did not read the other Verses around it, but merely (and I admit, mistakenly) offered a possible explanation of the word "delusion." However, after reading this Chapter in it's entirety, it is obvious that the word "delusion" does (without a doubt) mean "deceit/lies," as would be offered by Satan to people as he portrays himself (to them) as God.

inquisitive01 · 08-22-2004, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Ah..now we're changing the terms of the debate. I thought the purpose of the thread was to point out where the Bible contradicted itself (i.e. said two things that, if taken literally, could not both be true).

Notice also the accuracy (rather than the alleged inaccuracies) that seems to be present. Had one of these (John or Luke) mentioned "12" disciples being present, I would see the potential for contradiction since Judas could not have been present. However, Luke says "eleven" and John first says "10" (without Thomas present) and then "11" (with Thomas present). Notice that neither says all "12" were present, which would be accurate. Few seem to consider that, though. :huh:

Shameless Hussy · 08-22-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

The key words in Verse 11, which would support that "God" in Verse 11 is actually Satan portraying himself as God, are the words (or phrase) "for this cause." For what "cause" you might ask? Well, this is answered in the preceeding Verses... Verses 9 and 10.

Is it possible you are interpreting "cause" (in this usage) as "action or undertaking", e.g. the lawless one's "cause"? And if so, what is your basis for this interpretation?

The NIV uses the word "reason": for this reason God sends them a powerful delusion. The Study note for the phrase "for this reason" is: Because of their deliberate rejection of the truth (God sends them a powerful delusion).
Again, this is God punishing sinners with their own sin.

Just for fun, I went over to crosswalk.com's comparative study notes/commentary page for this chapter, and among the various readings and interpretations, as well as several translations other than the NIV, I didn't see one that supports what you are claiming. Perhaps it was there and I missed it. So I'll ask you again - is this an idea you came up with yourself, or is it taught somewhere, or what?

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