Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 09-01-2008, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

What seems to be forgotten here is that the gospellers whoever they were did exactly that.
Look in the OT for clues or prophecy for this Jesus character.
Any statement such as Isa 28;18 was grabbed with both hands as proof of their christ.
Nothing is further from the truth.
Both Isa.-1 and 2 are speaking of their own time, not some event hundreds of years into the future. That is not prophecy.
I can make a prophecy that within one century a great earthquake will strike say, Japan with an enormous loss of life. My chances of the prediction coming true are better than even money given the time frame.

why don't you make a prediction that a man will be beaten and bruised for the sins of others, buried in a rich man' tomb and yet will live. also include whom he will descend from and go back in history and promise that person that he will bless all people thru his descendant. perhaps an earthquake is not rare enough of an event to prove your point.

http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq...faq/17-03.html

Quote:

According to the Torah, the Messiah will:

1. Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple
2. Isaiah 43:5-6: Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel
3. Isaiah 2:4: Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."
4. Zechariah 14:9: Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel - uniting the entire human race as one: "G-d will be King over all the world—on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One"

Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies. Additionally:

Jesus was not descended from King David. Per Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David. However, according to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David! The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from a verse in Isaiah describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by G-ds.

In Christianity, the role of the messiah was redefined in order to fit the man’s career as written by his followers. As Jesus was said to have been resurrected, the Bible was examined with the purpose of finding evidence that the messiah would be killed without bringing peace to the world or redemption to Israel. There was therefore the expectation of a second coming, at which time Jesus would carry out the task expected of the messiah (because he obviously didn't do it the first time). This also required creation of an explanation for the first coming and its catastrophic end. The net result of all of this was to shift the function of the messiah from a visible level where it could be tested (as in Tanach, what Christians call the "Old Testament") to an invisible level where it could not. As a result of this reworking, the messiah’s goal the first time around was changed from the redemption of Israel to the atonement for "original sin". A reworking of Biblical themes.

There were also mistakes with respect to Jesus's death and its foretelling. Psalms 22:17 says, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet." Christians also claim that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. Actually, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The singular form is used because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit (this occurs elsewhere in Torah)

aChristian · 09-01-2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

[Psalms 22:17 says, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

You are incorrect here. The different manuscripts differ on the word and the Jewish translators of the Septuagint translated it as 'they pierced'.

avi · 09-01-2008, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

[Psalms 22:17 says, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

You are incorrect here. The different manuscripts differ on the word and the Jewish translators of the Septuagint translated it as 'they pierced'.

I am confused about whether or not "show_no_mercy" is "incorrect".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Callahan:

As to the assertion that either the Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Greek of the Septuagint can in any way be construed as "pierced", the simple facts of the matter are these: There is a much better Hebrew word that could have been used had the psalmist really wanted to say, "They pierced my hands and feet." That word is daqar, meaning to stab, thrust, wound or pierce; and ....there is also a much better word for pierce in Greek than the oryzan ('dig'). That word is ekkenteo, meaning to transfix...

I still don't know the answer, but I doubt that it is simple....
(Secret Origins of the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk), Millenium Press 2002)

sschlichter · 09-01-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

According to the Torah, the Messiah will:

1. Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple
2. Isaiah 43:5-6: Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel
3. Isaiah 2:4: Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."
4. Zechariah 14:9: Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel - uniting the entire human race as one: "G-d will be King over all the world—on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One"

these are not prophecies about his crucifixion. Consider the fact that Isreal is now a nation after 2000 years. 70 years ago, this would have been an excellent point you are making. since Jews have been flocking to a newly formed Jewish nation, I would hold off on that one.

Quote:

Jesus was not descended from King David. Per Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David. However, according to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David! The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from a verse in Isaiah describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by G-ds.

Jesus is the legal descendant of David (thru Joseph) and the physical desendant of David (through Mary). I agree with you on the translation of virgin. However, you need to consider that this was not written in modern times and a young maiden was presumed a virgin.

Quote:

There were also mistakes with respect to Jesus's death and its foretelling. Psalms 22:17 says, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet." Christians also claim that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. Actually, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The singular form is used because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit (this occurs elsewhere in Torah)

I am always baffled by this controversy. My hands and feet pinned as if by a lion conveys the same meaning to me, even if that were a better translation. This passage is about christ whether you include the word pierced or not.

(Psa 22:15) The roof of my mouth is as dry as a piece of pottery;
my tongue sticks to my gums.
You set me in the dust of death.
(Psa 22:16) Yes, wild dogs surround me -
a gang of evil men crowd around me;
like a lion they pin my hands and feet.
(Psa 22:17) I can count all my bones;
my enemies are gloating over me in triumph.
(Psa 22:18) They are dividing up my clothes among themselves;
they are rolling dice for my garments.

Each of these verses has a New Testament fulfuillment.

if Isa 53 is referring to the Jewish nation then who is "his people" that despised and rejected him?

How were the Jews "wounded because of our rebellious deeds, crushed because of our sins;"? Who is "our" if the servant is the Jews?

"because of the rebellion of his own people he was wounded." Who was wounded and who are his people if the Jews are the servant?

How does this describe the Jews?

They intended to bury him with criminals,

These are just some of the more common passages. We have not even touched on the typology in the Old Testament that the apostles could not have plausibly faked and possibly did not even see.

Amaleq13 · 09-01-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Jesus is the legal descendant of David (thru Joseph)...

According to what law?

show_no_mercy · 09-01-2008, 04:31 PM

I never understood why Christians think that they understand the Jewish language and religion better than Jews do.

aa5874 · 09-01-2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Jesus is the legal descendant of David (thru Joseph) and the physical desendant of David (through Mary). I agree with you on the translation of virgin. However, you need to consider that this was not written in modern times and a young maiden was presumed a virgin.

Which 1st or 2nd century Jew has confirmed anything about Jesus of the NT?
Now if Jesus was a real person, who was his real father? It wasn't Joseph unless the authors of Matthew and Luke wrote fiction.

Jesus could have really been an Egyptian, or a Roman or a legal descendant of anywhere in the world if only the authors did not write fiction.

angelo · 09-02-2008, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

What seems to be forgotten here is that the gospellers whoever they were did exactly that.
Look in the OT for clues or prophecy for this Jesus character.
Any statement such as Isa 28;18 was grabbed with both hands as proof of their christ.
Nothing is further from the truth.
Both Isa.-1 and 2 are speaking of their own time, not some event hundreds of years into the future. That is not prophecy.
I can make a prophecy that within one century a great earthquake will strike say, Japan with an enormous loss of life. My chances of the prediction coming true are better than even money given the time frame.

why don't you make a prediction that a man will be beaten and bruised for the sins of others, buried in a rich man' tomb and yet will live. also include whom he will descend from and go back in history and promise that person that he will bless all people thru his descendant. perhaps an earthquake is not rare enough of an event to prove your point.

Who did he descend from? According to the babble he descended from David, but then contradicts it by saying he was the only begotten son of God.
So, who is his father? you can't have it both ways.
:huh:

sschlichter · 09-02-2008, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

I never understood why Christians think that they understand the Jewish language and religion better than Jews do.

Do English people have an innate superior understanding of Shakespeare?

sschlichter · 09-02-2008, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

why don't you make a prediction that a man will be beaten and bruised for the sins of others, buried in a rich man' tomb and yet will live. also include whom he will descend from and go back in history and promise that person that he will bless all people thru his descendant. perhaps an earthquake is not rare enough of an event to prove your point.

Who did he descend from? According to the babble he descended from David, but then contradicts it by saying he was the only begotten son of God.
So, who is his father? you can't have it both ways.
:huh:

when you are both 100% God and 100% man then you can have it both ways. Son of God and Son of Man.

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09-01-2008, 04:31 PM	#1146
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	I never understood why Christians think that they understand the Jewish language and religion better than Jews do.

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