Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 01-21-2012, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Josephus reports that Herod the Great gave Marc Antony a “great deal of money” in order to have Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews, slain. (37 b.c.)

Cassius Dio reports that Antigonus was tied to a stake/cross and scourged.

Maryhelena, have you read Robert Graves' fictional "King Jesus"? The novel posits Jesus as the grandson of Antigonus, with Mary the daughter of Herod the Great. Graves apparently researched the background and claimed he could defend some of the premises of the novel. I haven't read it myself, though his two "Claudius" books are among my favorites. I was wondering what you thought of it.

No, Don - I've not read this book, or the other two - not really into that sort of thing. I did recently come across his name - if my memory is working......re the bones of a figure that he (if it was him..............) thought might be those of Antigonus ie the bones reveal a figure that was crucified and beheaded. Don't have the web source to hand unfortunately - but I think the idea that the bones might be those of Antigonus was rejected for various reasons.

Since I view the gospel JC as a composite figure - the JC figure is nonhistorical to my mind. That said - as you might know from my various posts over the last few years - I do believe that the history of Antigonus has served as an anchor, or a springboard, for the gospel JC story.

maryhelena · 01-21-2012, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Josephus reports that Herod the Great gave Marc Antony a “great deal of money” in order to have Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews, slain. (37 b.c.)

Cassius Dio reports that Antigonus was tied to a stake/cross and scourged.

Maryhelena, have you read Robert Graves' fictional "King Jesus"? The novel posits Jesus as the grandson of Antigonus, with Mary the daughter of Herod the Great. Graves apparently researched the background and claimed he could defend some of the premises of the novel. I haven't read it myself, though his two "Claudius" books are among my favorites. I was wondering what you thought of it.

My mistake it seems.......

It's not Robert Graves book I recently came across - it was a book on a Herodian Messiah by JJ Ramond - and his site has an article re the bones that indicate a crucifixion and a beheading. It was the bones that interested me not the book. - ie no historical JC...........

Quote:

This work of non-fiction presents the author's painstakingly collected evidence supporting a shocking theory, that Jesus was the grandson of both Herod the Great and the last Hasmonean king (Antigonus).

http://www.jjraymond.com/religion/abbatomb.html

jgreen44 · 01-21-2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Keep in mind though that novels often retell or use historical details in their literary storyline. Where would Hollywood be without all its movies based upon some war or other. Realism in novels, or on the big screen, needs an anchor in historical events.

And the screenwriters of the Jesus of Nazareth screenplay mined Josephus for other story ideas such as:

A. the three men who were crucified together, one of whom survived.

B. The event which caused God's wrath to fall upon Jerusalem, the killing of the high priest in the heart of the city. In Hebrews Jesus is identified as the high priest.

And, C., the parallel Lives of Jesus ben Ananus and Jesus ben Joseph.

In The Jewish Wars, Josephus wrote of one Jesus ben Ananus who was killed by the Romans prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. There are 14 obvious parallels between the stories of Jesus ben Ananus and that of Jesus ben Joseph....

Both Jesus'...

1) were from the lower classes

2) preached a gloomy message about the fate of Jerusalem and it's people.

3) were arrested by the Jewish authorities

4) were then beaten by the Jewish authorities

5) refused to speak or represent themselves

6) after being interrogated and whipped by the Jewish authorities, were then brought to the Roman procurator

7) were then whipped by the Roman Procurator

8) did not cry out in pain during the whipping

9) were asked to identify themselves

10) were identified as madmen

11) were going to be released by the Roman procurator

12) last words were statements of despair about their own fates

13) were killed by the Romans

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comm...record_of_the/

jgreen44 · 01-21-2012, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In the future please say what you believe and allow to me to state my position because you obviously don't know what you are talking about with respect to my position.

I think I made that clear in my last post. Regarding your overall theory of early Christianity, i don't know what I'm talking about. I attempted to state what I suspected to be your theory so that you could clarify what you really believe, not to misrepresent your position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I have NOT claimed Marcion and Basilides were boogeymen or made up by the Church..

OK. Then how do they fit into your early Christian universe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

How come you are so wrong????

Because you have yet to provide me with your timeline of early Christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Now, was Paul a boogeyman of the Church?

He could have been a creation of Marcion or Marcionites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Who first wrote the Gospel? Marcion or Paul?

Paul could have been a literary creation, an ideal Christian who lived in that mythical time before the destruction of Jerusalem, a character designed to give authority and weight to theological ideas.

aa5874 · 01-21-2012, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Josephus reports that Herod the Great gave Marc Antony a “great deal of money” in order to have Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews, slain. (37 b.c.)

Cassius Dio reports that Antigonus was tied to a stake/cross and scourged.

Maryhelena, have you read Robert Graves' fictional "King Jesus"? The novel posits Jesus as the grandson of Antigonus, with Mary the daughter of Herod the Great. Graves apparently researched the background and claimed he could defend some of the premises of the novel. I haven't read it myself, though his two "Claudius" books are among my favorites. I was wondering what you thought of it.

This is quite remarkable. A Fiction novel that was NOT read is somehow evidence.

Please, you should have least read the Fiction first.

I have in front of me a Fiction novel and this is the Disclaimer:

This is a work of Fiction. Names and characters are the products of the author's Imagination and any Resemblance to Actual persons, living or dead, is Entirely co-incidental.

Just forget about Fiction novels that are NOT evidence of anything.

maryhelena · 01-21-2012, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Keep in mind though that novels often retell or use historical details in their literary storyline. Where would Hollywood be without all its movies based upon some war or other. Realism in novels, or on the big screen, needs an anchor in historical events.

And the screenwriters of the Jesus of Nazareth screenplay mined Josephus for other story ideas such as:

A. the three men who were crucified together, one of whom survived.

B. The event which caused God's wrath to fall upon Jerusalem, the killing of the high priest in the heart of the city. In Hebrews Jesus is identified as the high priest.

And, C., the parallel Lives of Jesus ben Ananus and Jesus ben Joseph.

In The Jewish Wars, Josephus wrote of one Jesus ben Ananus who was killed by the Romans prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. There are 14 obvious parallels between the stories of Jesus ben Ananus and that of Jesus ben Joseph....

Both Jesus'...

1) were from the lower classes

2) preached a gloomy message about the fate of Jerusalem and it's people.

3) were arrested by the Jewish authorities

4) were then beaten by the Jewish authorities

5) refused to speak or represent themselves

6) after being interrogated and whipped by the Jewish authorities, were then brought to the Roman procurator

7) were then whipped by the Roman Procurator

8) did not cry out in pain during the whipping

9) were asked to identify themselves

10) were identified as madmen

11) were going to be released by the Roman procurator

12) last words were statements of despair about their own fates

13) were killed by the Romans

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comm...record_of_the/

Yes, most probably a lot of storytelling in Josephus - but the jump from all of that to history requires some historical evidence. Which we do have for Antigonus - the Hasmonean coins testify to his historical existence. That's the difference between realism and storytelling - evidence. Josephus can weave his tall tales in his reconstruction of 'history' - but without some evidence he could well be spinning us his own prophetic view of Hasmonean and Herodian history.

Quote:

Preface to the War of the Jews, ch.1.par.6

....many Jews before me have composed the histories of our ancestors very exactly;......... But then, where the writers of these affairs and our prophets leave off, thence shall I take my rise, and begin my history.

War, Book 3 ch.8

“….he called to mind the dreams which he had dreamed in the night time, whereby God had signified to him beforehand both the future calamities of the Jews, and the events that concerned the Roman emperors. Now Josephus was able to give shrewd conjectures about the interpretation of such dreams as have been ambiguously delivered by God. Moreover, he was not unacquainted with the prophecies contained in the sacred books, as being a priest himself, and of the posterity of priests"...

Josephus - prophetic historian down to the depths of his being.......

aa5874 · 01-21-2012, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Yes, most probably a lot of storytelling in Josephus - but the jump from all of that to history requires some historical evidence. Which we do have for Antigonus - the Hasmonean coins testify to his historical existence. That's the difference between realism and storytelling - evidence. Josephus can weave his tall tales in his reconstruction of 'history' - but without some evidence he could well be spinning us his own prophetic view of Hasmonean and Herodian history....

Well, the your Hasmonean coins has destroyed your own view of Josephus.

Josephus WAS NOT any "prophetic historian".

Josephus was a most CREDIBLE writer as your Hasmonean coins have "TESTIFIED".

maryhelena · 01-21-2012, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Yes, most probably a lot of storytelling in Josephus - but the jump from all of that to history requires some historical evidence. Which we do have for Antigonus - the Hasmonean coins testify to his historical existence. That's the difference between realism and storytelling - evidence. Josephus can weave his tall tales in his reconstruction of 'history' - but without some evidence he could well be spinning us his own prophetic view of Hasmonean and Herodian history....

Well, the your Hasmonean coins has destroyed your own view of Josephus.

Josephus WAS NOT any "prophetic historian".

Josephus was a most CREDIBLE writer as your Hasmonean coins have "TESTIFIED".

Yep - score 1 for Josephus. How about Judas the Galilean - found any historical evidence for this figure???

Prophetic Figures in Late Second Temple Jewish Palestine:The Evidence from Josephus (or via: amazon.co.uk) Rebecca Gray

Quote:

page 78

Josephus presents himself in two different, but overlapping, prophetic roles. He appears, first, as a Jeremiah-like figure, a priest who denounces sin and preaches repentance, whose message is the submission to foreign rule is God’s will, who stands fast against the delusions of false prophets and rebels, and who is concerned, above all, with preserving God’s holy temple. He claims to have been called to perform this role in a dramatic moment of revelation he which in appears, secondly, as a Daniel-type figure, an esoteric wise man who can interpret the meaning of even the most difficult dreams and omens, who understands the prophecies of the sacred books, and who knows God’s plans for kings and kingdoms’ in this portrait, too, I noted a certain priestly element. Like Daniel, Josephus was to rise to a position of prominence under a foreign ruler as a result of his prophetic gifts and would be subject to accusations from envious opponents and rivals.

One question remains: how much of this self-portrait is true? That is, how much of Josephus’ portrayal of himself as a prophet reflects what he actually said and did and thought at the time of the events he is depicting, and how much of it is a result of later reflection and literary elaboration?

This is, of course, an extraordinarily difficult question to answer. There is no denying that the picture we now possess of Josephus as a prophet has been refined and developed in various ways. For example, the ideas that he claims first came to him in a moment of prophetic revelation at Jotapata – that God was punishing the Jews for their sins and that fortune had gone over to the Romans - have become major interpretive themes in the War as a whole. Josephus also sometimes reinforces the prophetic claims that he makes for himself by subtle changes in his presentation of the ancient prophets. And it is probable that, with the passage of time, Josephus’ image of himself as a prophet became clearer in his own mind.

Toto · 01-21-2012, 10:30 AM

King Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) -

Graves is an advocate of the ancient goddess worship.

The US Amazon link has some informative reviews

Quote:

Second,the book is a novel about the struggle between the patriarchal religion of the Hebrews and the cult mystery religions of the triple goddess, or the white goddess. This ancient religion has as the central deity a female goddess who is mother/birth, wife/consort/fertility, and death/destroyer. Graves has Mary the mother of Jesus, his cousin Mary (sister of Martha and Lazarus), and Mary Magdalene playing these roles. However, in the religion of the triple goddess or white goddess, a male plays the role of son, husband, consort, king, and finally human sacrifice to this triple goddess. Graves has Jesus move from the role of warrior king of the Jews to sacrificial king through the novel. Whereas Mary the mother of Jesus is a player in the Hebrew plot to support Jesus as the military Messiah, his wife and cousin Mary asks him to use his powers to raise his cousin (her brother) Lazarus from the dead. Jesus does this act but because he must now offer God a life for a life, he must offer his own life for that of Lazarus. This puts Jesus directly in the power and plot of Mary Magdalene (the layer-out) who requires the sacrificial death of her husband/consort to bless the world and its people. Graves was probably the foremost expert on the religions of the triple goddess and his scholarship helps maintain the internal consistency of the novel.

Finally, we are left with the question of whether Jesus' crucifixion was a triumph of the feminist mystery religion of the triple goddess over the Hebrew messiah or whether Jesus' crucifixion spelled the doom of the triple goddess as he emerges as the Christian savior.

J-D · 01-21-2012, 12:15 PM

Robert Graves later abandoned some parts of the ideas explored in King Jesus, partly as a result of coming into contact with Joshua Podro, a scholar of Hebrew and Aramaic. The two collaborated on a non-fictional work which they titled The Nazarene Gospel Restored, in which they combined their scholarship in complementary areas to explore a different hypothesis about the history of Christianity.

In an interesting footnote to the publication of this book, one or two newspapers (perhaps unsurprisingly) assigned the responsibility of reviewing The Nazarene Gospel Restored to clergymen who accused Graves of faulty scholarship. He sued for libel and the cases were settled in his favour.

Copies of The Nazarene Gospel Restored are, however, much harder to find than King Jesus. The later book also makes for drier reading--King Jesus is, after all, a novel (and doesn't pretend otherwise).

Still harder to find is Graves and Podro's short sequel to The Nazarene Gospel Restored, titled Jesus In Rome, but in any case it does not add a great deal to the original hypothesis.

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01-21-2012, 12:15 PM	#40
J-D Moderator - General Religious Discussions Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New South Wales Posts: 27,330	Robert Graves later abandoned some parts of the ideas explored in King Jesus, partly as a result of coming into contact with Joshua Podro, a scholar of Hebrew and Aramaic. The two collaborated on a non-fictional work which they titled The Nazarene Gospel Restored, in which they combined their scholarship in complementary areas to explore a different hypothesis about the history of Christianity. In an interesting footnote to the publication of this book, one or two newspapers (perhaps unsurprisingly) assigned the responsibility of reviewing The Nazarene Gospel Restored to clergymen who accused Graves of faulty scholarship. He sued for libel and the cases were settled in his favour. Copies of The Nazarene Gospel Restored are, however, much harder to find than King Jesus. The later book also makes for drier reading--King Jesus is, after all, a novel (and doesn't pretend otherwise). Still harder to find is Graves and Podro's short sequel to The Nazarene Gospel Restored, titled Jesus In Rome, but in any case it does not add a great deal to the original hypothesis.

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