Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jakejonesiv · 11-01-2006, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

The text of Revelation seems to indicate immanent destruction and "tribulations", followed by revenge on the oppressors and the building of a "new Jerusalem".

Hi Pervy,

Regardless whatever interpretation of the millenium should be, the holy city (Jerusalem) and God's people are not envisioned to be ultimately destroyed by their enemies.

They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev. 20:9.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

...one would expect the themes to be about the destruction being prevented by God, not about the destruction happening but then being avenged by God and his followers getting the last laugh...

But that is exactly what Rev. 20:9 says! So I don't understand your point at all.

It is definitely true that the author of Revelation describes great suffering and destruction, but he does not forsee the total destruction of the faithful. Things had become so desparate that only the divine estachological intervention could save the remnant. Rev. 12:17. He expects the faithful remnant to be saved, but in conjunction with the alleged end time events.

This is quite a common theme in the the Hebrew Scriptures, as seen for example in Zecharia 13:8-9; Joel 2:32.

Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv · 11-01-2006, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Consider the slain lamb of Revelation 5; who is this lamb?

According to Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter XL, the Jews had an ancient custom in which the Pashcal Lamb was transfixed on two spits, one running the length of the body, and one across the back, to which the forelegs of the Lamb were fastened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Who is the messianic figure, called both son of God and son of man, who keeps promising to come?

The imagery comes from Daniel 7:13. Again, I must note that all these images (Servant, Lamb, Son of Man) were pre-Christian, and available to non-Christian Jewish writers.

Jake Jones IV

dzim77 · 11-01-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

I would think that in a "real" Christian work you would find Jesus better integrated into the story. The problem may be that Christianity was not synthesized de novo: it got its ideas somewhere. For example, I agree with Ben that this business of the Lamb's blood saving people for God is pretty Christian, but as Jake pointed out there is a pretty obvious precursor of that idea in Exodus.

So when do we call a work Christian? What really separates Christianity from its precursors?

A Christian work would be expected to portray Jesus as the Christ.

If you accept the premise in Revelations that Jesus is the Christ, it should follow that the Lamb, the Lion of Judah, the child of Ch.12, the Rider on the White Horse, the Root of the Offspring of David...are all references to this Christ. In this light, Revelations is filled with Jesus from beginning to end.

You can see below that the ruler with the iron scepter (from Psalm 2) is the Christ. Jesus (in Ch.2), the child of the woman, and the Rider are all referred to as this ruler with the iron scepter, the Christ. It should follow from the context that the Lamb and the Lion of Judah are pictures of this same Christ figure.

Quote:

'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery'— just as I have received authority from my Father.
-Rev 2:27

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
-Rev 12:5

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
Rev 19:11-15

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

I would maintain that at minimum this is the person of Jesus and the idea of forgiveness/God's universal love. Revelations is weak on Jesus and absent on forgiveness/love.

I agree that Revelation does not emphasize forgiveness and love. Notice that the letters to the Christian churches in Ch. 2 and 3 do not emphasize this either - rather they focus on endurance, reward, and judgment - these are all very Christian ideas. The emphasis in Revelation is on judgement and the conquering victory of Christ... obviously because it is concerning the end of the world.

Recall how Jesus spoke of the end of the age in the gospels. It sounds a lot like the book of Revelation, doesn't it?...

Quote:

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:40-42

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:30-31

At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Luke 21:27

Given these words of Jesus, shouldn't we expect a Christian apocalypse to take the tone that Revelation does?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Furthermore, the Lamb, which seems to give an air of Christianity to the book, has some rather un-Christian attributes. Specifically, it is married (19:7, 21:9). Michael Baigent and Dan Brown notwithstanding, Jesus is generally not seen as married.

Thanks for pointing that out

On the contrary, this illustration lends weight to Revelation as a Christian work. The illustration of Jesus as a bridegroom and the church as a bride is used througout the NT. For example:

Quote:

Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. -Mark 2:19

You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.' The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. John 3:28-29 (John the Baptist)

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
-2 Corinthians 11:2

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies.
-Ephesians 5:25-28

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

So yes, we can find some ideas in Revelations that we also find in Christianity.

Yes, many of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

We also find ideas in Revelations that we don't find in Christianity.

such as?

Quote:

And some of Christianity's defining characteristics seem to be absent or at most weakly present. I'm not sure that we can call Revelations Christian on those grounds.

Gerard

dzim77 · 11-01-2006, 09:42 AM

Shepherd

Quote:

For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. - Rev 6:17

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
-John 10:11

Water of life/Living Water

Quote:

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. -Rev 21:6

On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." -John 7:37-38

The Lamb

Quote:

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, -Rev. 5:6

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! -John 1:29

Light

Quote:

The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. -Rev 21:23-24

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
-John 8:12

Bridegroom and Bride

Quote:

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready
-Rev 19:7

The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. -John 3:28

God the Father

Quote:

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. -Rev 14:1

For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. -John 5:18

Groups of Seven

Ok, perhaps this is a stretch...

The gospel of John is organized by groupings of Jesus' signs (miracles), teaching, and "I am" statements. There are seven signs (miracles), seven teachings, and seven "I am" statements of Jesus.

In Revelation we have the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven angels with seven plagues.

Coincidence?? Or does John just like sevens?

hatsoff · 11-01-2006, 09:50 AM

Oh, I think there's a great deal of parallel linguistics between GJohn and AJohn. 1 John, too, actually. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the author of all three turned out to be the same fellow. Most traditions ascribed them to the Apostle John, though some suggested John the Presbyter or Cerinthius. In my opinion it was probably none of those three.

Dean Anderson · 11-01-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

But that is exactly what Rev. 20:9 says! So I don't understand your point at all.

Sorry, I was confused - I don't think I understand what I wrote, either.

mumble mumble... mustn't post whilst tired... mumble mumble...

jakejonesiv · 11-03-2006, 12:19 PM

OK, let me make my last comment before the thread goes completely stale.

In 1 Enoch chapters 88 ff, we find the little lambs, the sheep. one of which grows into a Ram which stands for the conquering Messiah. Try reading through here, and you will see just how much closer Revelation is to 1 Enoch than any purported text in the New Testament.

Hardly anyone denies that many (if not most) of the images used in Revelation (the Lamb, the Servant, the Remnant) were not originally Christian images, they were pre-Christian.

Also, hardly anyone denies that when Christianity came along, these images and symbols were appropriated and applied to Jesus and the emerging Christian religion.

We know the transition from Jewish symbol to Christian symbol had to have happened at some time. I am suggesting that in Revelation, we are as close as we are likely to get to seeing this process in action.

Jake Jones IV

Clivedurdle · 11-03-2006, 12:33 PM

Every so often I comment I was brought up with Dakes Annotated Reference Bible, as was any proper pentecostal.

There you will find, quite explicitly, all the references and more than you would ever have imagined to the old testament, because they believe the entire Bible is inspired - none of this OT is superceded stuff - it is dripping with references to Jesus and Christ - as one would expect if God wrote it!

Interstingly, this may give clues to the dating of all this. Look for the references to Enoch, OT, sacrificing lambs and see this as the early stuff.

Look at the rest of the stuff and think, that idea does not quite fit, what sort of christology is that, what happened, has someone tampered with something?

I wonder if the gospels are actually much later than assumed.

Assume a mythical Christ and look for the evolution of thinking, the tamperings, the later clarifications by someone trying to put something into a more modern idiom - paraphrasing did not start with the Living Bible.

Revelation is not a xian text.

dzim77 · 11-03-2006, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

OK, let me make my last comment before the thread goes completely stale.

In 1 Enoch chapters 88 ff, we find the little lambs, the sheep. one of which grows into a Ram which stands for the conquering Messiah. Try reading through here, and you will see just how much closer Revelation is to 1 Enoch than any purported text in the New Testament.

Hardly anyone denies that many (if not most) of the images used in Revelation (the Lamb, the Servant, the Remnant) were not originally Christian images, they were pre-Christian.

Also, hardly anyone denies that when Christianity came along, these images and symbols were appropriated and applied to Jesus and the emerging Christian religion.

Jake Jones IV

Good points.

I still see no reason to think that Revelation is not a thoroughly Christian work. And a Johannine work at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

We know the transition from Jewish symbol to Christian symbol had to have happened at some time. I am suggesting that in Revelation, we are as close as we are likely to get to seeing this process in action.

This is interesting.

We also have Pauline usage of Jewish symbols applied to Christianity... the lamb and the remnant to name a few.

Quote:

Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
-1 Corinthians 5:7

Quote:

So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
-romans 11:5

Clivedurdle · 11-03-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
-1 Corinthians 5:7

Thank you for quoting a classic mythicist text!

By arguing as you have, you need to be clear that Paul was a xian as they are defined now - he was not. He looks to me as a gnostic neo platonist possibly jewish writer who copied psuedo alchemic stuff about turning wine into blood and bread into flesh as an earthly magical copy ritual of a sacrifice of a perfect lamb in heaven.

I think we have more than enough clues to work out what most probably happened, but to do that we must dump the jesusdidit big virgin birth death resurrection scenario, and treat this stuff as part of the evolution of the religion. This also explains the fascinating lack of external correlation of an hj.

11-03-2006, 12:19 PM	#37
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	The transition from Jewish to Christian Symbolism OK, let me make my last comment before the thread goes completely stale. In 1 Enoch chapters 88 ff, we find the little lambs, the sheep. one of which grows into a Ram which stands for the conquering Messiah. Try reading through here, and you will see just how much closer Revelation is to 1 Enoch than any purported text in the New Testament. Hardly anyone denies that many (if not most) of the images used in Revelation (the Lamb, the Servant, the Remnant) were not originally Christian images, they were pre-Christian. Also, hardly anyone denies that when Christianity came along, these images and symbols were appropriated and applied to Jesus and the emerging Christian religion. We know the transition from Jewish symbol to Christian symbol had to have happened at some time. I am suggesting that in Revelation, we are as close as we are likely to get to seeing this process in action. Jake Jones IV

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11-01-2006, 09:50 AM	#35
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	Oh, I think there's a great deal of parallel linguistics between GJohn and AJohn. 1 John, too, actually. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the author of all three turned out to be the same fellow. Most traditions ascribed them to the Apostle John, though some suggested John the Presbyter or Cerinthius. In my opinion it was probably none of those three.

11-03-2006, 12:33 PM	#38
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Every so often I comment I was brought up with Dakes Annotated Reference Bible, as was any proper pentecostal. There you will find, quite explicitly, all the references and more than you would ever have imagined to the old testament, because they believe the entire Bible is inspired - none of this OT is superceded stuff - it is dripping with references to Jesus and Christ - as one would expect if God wrote it! Interstingly, this may give clues to the dating of all this. Look for the references to Enoch, OT, sacrificing lambs and see this as the early stuff. Look at the rest of the stuff and think, that idea does not quite fit, what sort of christology is that, what happened, has someone tampered with something? I wonder if the gospels are actually much later than assumed. Assume a mythical Christ and look for the evolution of thinking, the tamperings, the later clarifications by someone trying to put something into a more modern idiom - paraphrasing did not start with the Living Bible. Revelation is not a xian text.

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