the_cave

Doesn't this pretty much settle the question? With the possibility that the first draft was written in 70, per Clivedurdle (a suggestion which makes a lot of sense, imo.)

And so the Neronian persecution would be pretty much beside the point.

the_cave

Actually, this suddenly begins to make a whole *heck* of a lot of sense...

Revelations, first draft, is written around 70 as a Jewish Messianic text. The Messiah will come and destroy Rome.

Afterwards, Mark and probably Matthew are written, claiming that the Messiah *did* come, and was on earth. They further make the claim that he will *return*, and will then establish his kingdom in full.

Later, Revelations is updated to reflect this belief, and becomes the traditional text of Christ's *second* coming.

This provides strong evidence that Mark and probably Matthew (possibly also John) were in fact written between 70 and 96.

Amlodhi

Certainly a possibility.


Also, any Neronian elements that might be in a Domitian era redaction (or original), would need be dependent only on the legend of Neronian persecution rather than accurate history.


Amlodhi

rlogan

Fair enough.

Leaving us, still, with such immediate contact that explaining away the absence of reference is a chore.


It just gets so old. Everything about Christianity is explaining away. Were this the only thing it would almost be excusable. But it is in the context of a complete lack of any evidence whatsoever for the history fabricated in the second century.

Vorkosigan

I wasn't suggesting that Josephus would have used his influence. What I was pointing out was that Josephus knew the people involved in this persecution, which makes his silence strange.

If the suggestion of Donahue is correct and this event occurred in ~67 then there is no problem. It becomes far more problematical if it occurred in ~64 when Josephus had either just left or was still in Rome.

Does Dio Chrysostom (40-~120) mention this event in his Discourses/Orations? I can't even find them on the Net. Chrysostom doesn't even mention Christians AFAIK. This seems incredible if Nero had tortured to death "immense multitudes" of them in Rome when Dio was an adult in his twenties. Dio was a friend of Titus Flavian and lived in Rome until Domitian banished him.

andrewcriddle

If Josephus was as close to Poppea as he implies, I'm a little surprised that he apparently had no input on the disastrous decision to send Gessius Florus to Palestine, a decision that would appear to have been made while he was in Rome, and to have been made on Poppea's recommendation.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

The problem with Dio Chrysostom is that he was born in Prusa in modern Turkey and apparently only moved to Rome as an adult.

We just don't know if he was in Rome before the accession of Vespasian.

Andrew Criddle