Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-22-2011, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Dr. Dale B. Martin, Woolsey Professor of Religious Studies at Yale University, lectured Tuesday about the misuse of the Bible in American public life. . .

“The two gods of American idolatry are family and nation,” he said. “It somewhat parallels the Romans. They had temples dedicated to the family and Rome.”

People have to divorce the Bible from its historical and critical context and “terribly twist” it to make it support the two items, Martin said. “Both the right and left pride themselves on family and patriotism. We may as well be burning incense and worshipping at the temple of Caesar.”

Discussing Jesus Christ, Martin said the “historical Jesus” was a construct, not the real person.

Dale Martin CV

jgoodguy · 10-23-2011, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Americans misuse the Bible

Quote:

Dr. Dale B. Martin, Woolsey Professor of Religious Studies at Yale University, lectured Tuesday about the misuse of the Bible in American public life. . .

“The two gods of American idolatry are family and nation,” he said. “It somewhat parallels the Romans. They had temples dedicated to the family and Rome.”

People have to divorce the Bible from its historical and critical context and “terribly twist” it to make it support the two items, Martin said. “Both the right and left pride themselves on family and patriotism. We may as well be burning incense and worshipping at the temple of Caesar.”

Discussing Jesus Christ, Martin said the “historical Jesus” was a construct, not the real person.

Dale Martin CV

1con·struct
verb \kən-ˈstrəkt\
Definition of CONSTRUCT
transitive verb
1
: to make or form by combining or arranging parts or elements : build; also : contrive, devise

A 'construct' of fiction, partial history or what?

The minimalist HJ is that Jesus existed. Is that a construct or is he speaking of one of the HJs projected by several authors.

Toto · 10-23-2011, 09:06 AM

I think he is saying that every claim about the historical Jesus made by his fellow PhD's is a construct. I don't think he is a mythicist.

DCHindley · 10-23-2011, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCH

People have to divorce the Bible from its historical and critical context and “terribly twist” it to make it support mythicism, Dave said. “Both the fundies and secularists pride themselves on absolute historicism and absolute mythicism. We may as well be burning incense and worshipping at the temple of Caesar.”

Discussing Jesus Christ, Dave said the “mythical Jesus” was a construct, not a 'real' myth.

Hmmmm ... sandlewood!

DCH

Horatio Parker · 10-23-2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Americans misuse the Bible

Quote:

I think it is clear that the net result of all the centuries of Christianity has been to make men more egotistic, more shut up in themselves, than nature made them; for the impulses that naturally take a man outside the walls of his ego are those of sex, parenthood, and patriotism or herd instinct. Sex the Church did everything it could to decry and degrade; family affection was decried by Christ himself and by the bulk of his followers; and patriotism could find no place among the subject populations of the Roman Empire.

Bertrand Russell

jakejonesiv · 10-24-2011, 11:30 AM

Gospel Jesus is a Frankenstein monster constructed from dissimilar parts.

Solo · 10-25-2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Gospel Jesus is a Frankenstein monster constructed from dissimilar parts.

Different hormonal rage, that's for sure !

Jiri

JoeWallack · 10-25-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Gospel Jesus is a Frankenstein monster constructed from dissimilar parts.

FrankenChrist. The 4 Source Puzzle. Was There Just 1 Historical Piece? Fitting The 4

Frankenchrist

Quote:

FrankenChrist by Mary Shalomlly

Author's note - this story may be too scary for some IIDB readers not used to ancient secret cult rituals of drinking human blood and eating human flesh. It is best read at night by the light of the computer monitor with all of the lights turned off and the children already in bed. It is best accompanied by some flesh colored wafers and one glass of very red wine.

At a secret Scriptorium far beneath the local synagogue in Transyermith Dr. FrankenChrist, an old Hellenized Jew, has just come in from the pouring rain. The laboratory is filled with test tubes, beakers, wires, medical apparatus and two large operating tables. On each operating table is a body of literature covered by a sheet with many connections running between the bodies and the medical apparatus.

JW:
Ohh, that's scary. Reeally scarry. 4 sources have been identified for the original Gospel "Mark":

1) The Jewish Bible

2) Josephus

3) Paul

4) Historical witness

The question this Thread will try to answer is can these 4 sources reasonably be the building blocks for all, or at least most, of "Mark"?

Reconstructing this Monster Gospel I see each of the 4 contributing as follows:

1) The Jewish Bible

The Jewish Bible is the heart of the story, giving it purpose and motivation. It is the past and the prophesied future.

2) Josephus

Josephus is the legs of the story giving a historical setting that the characters must walk through.

3) Paul

Paul is the brains of the story explaining how the Jewish Bible prophesied FrankenChrist.

4) Historical witness

Historical witness are the intestines of the story. Real historical witness is documented by Q, representing a Teaching & Healing Ministry. The only part of the Tale that could possibly be historical. Paul and than "Mark", following Paul, treat this historical witness as shit.

Putting the pieces together we get off to a good start:

Mark 1

Quote:
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

2 Even as it is written in Isaiah the prophet, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Who shall prepare thy way.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight;
JW:
Hard to miss the source of the Prologue here. It is explicitly the Jewish Bible.

For further study, the Mythical Vorkosigan's:

Sources of Mark

Everyone is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

ApostateAbe · 10-29-2011, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Americans misuse the Bible

Quote:

Dr. Dale B. Martin, Woolsey Professor of Religious Studies at Yale University, lectured Tuesday about the misuse of the Bible in American public life. . .

“The two gods of American idolatry are family and nation,” he said. “It somewhat parallels the Romans. They had temples dedicated to the family and Rome.”

People have to divorce the Bible from its historical and critical context and “terribly twist” it to make it support the two items, Martin said. “Both the right and left pride themselves on family and patriotism. We may as well be burning incense and worshipping at the temple of Caesar.”

Discussing Jesus Christ, Martin said the “historical Jesus” was a construct, not the real person.

Dale Martin CV

Discussing Jesus Christ, Martin said the “historical Jesus” was a construct, not the real person.

Do you happen to know the complete quote of Martin? I don't think it is useful to trust the paraphrase of the The Daily Times in this case. All historical Jesuses are constructs, and of course ideally they would be designed to emulate the real person, but not many actually do a good job. The modern Jesus popularly believed, the family-friendly historical Jesus, is only a modern construct.

Here is the paragraph that immediately follows what you quoted in the article:

Jesus wasn’t a family man, Martin said. He called others to be itinerant men and women.

I don't know why you left that part out of the OP.

Toto · 10-29-2011, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

...
I don't know why you left that part out of the OP.

Copyright limits the amount you can quote.

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10-23-2011, 09:06 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think he is saying that every claim about the historical Jesus made by his fellow PhD's is a construct. I don't think he is a mythicist.

10-24-2011, 11:30 AM	#6
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	Gospel Jesus is a Frankenstein monster constructed from dissimilar parts.

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